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Subject: An unhealthy diet of empty calories rss

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David B
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In Uwe Rosenberg’s latest mega box game, you are leading a clan of Vikings in their quest to collect and prepare food for wonderful merry feasts, to visit faraway lands and dangerous waters to collect loot, treasure, and other spoils, and to put these on display to show the world your greatness and vitality. Translation: you are collecting a bunch of tiles to cover up a bunch of -1’s.
A Feast for Odin is heralded by many as the culmination of many modern innovations in the Eurogame genre. I can only hope it is the culmination so that we can perhaps forget what is in this box and move on to something else. Let me address some things I find particularly annoying about this game.


1)Way, way too much stuff. The games that most impress me are the ones that make the most of the least. Some may disagree, but I find games like Power Grid, Modern Art, and Medici to have vast levels of depth and they do it with relatively few components and rules that can be explained in a matter of minutes. Hanamakoji, a recent small box card game with 21 player cards and 7 “border” cards, is a masterful design that challenges and encourages many skills from the players. A Feast for Odin, on the other hand, throws hundreds of cardboard chits, dozens of spaces for workers, numerous player boards, and tons of crap in the middle of the table at the players and manages to achieve a fairly high level of complexity, but fails to achieve the depth of Lost Cities.


2)And about those action spaces. When photos of the action space board for AFfO were first released, BGGers were immediately salivating over it. Why? It has to be one of the ugliest game boards I have seen. It looks like a crowded collection of text clouds each with tiny font describing the “fun” things you can do if you place a worker(s) there. I happen to enjoy the Kramer/Kiesling worker placement game “Coal Baron”. That game features graphics that illuminate the theme. The bank looks like a bank. The coal mines look like coal mines. In AFfO, it looks like you are literally placing meeples on a spreadsheet . The whaling space has small words that mention whaling. And a few spaces over there are some words that say something about hunting. But there is near nothing in the graphics that is in the least bit evocative of any activity that might be interesting to a Viking. In short, that central board is a major eyesore and I find it unfathomable that there are gamers itching to spend three hours staring at it.


3)A worker placement mechanism with no real twist. Supposedly, Rosenberg is the master of the worker placement mechanism. His contributions to the genre have been some of the best selling examples of it. Personally, I think Attia’s entry in the genre surpasses anything Rosenberg has done, but I digress. The only “twist” in this game is that the stronger spaces require more workers. The weakest spaces require one worker while the strongest spaces require four. Hence, you have to plan carefully how to allot workers and time those power actions accordingly. But I have seen this “twist” before and done better. I mentioned Coal Baron above and that is a game that used this twist. In that game, the number of workers required to activate a spot is player driven; if you go to a spot I need before I do, it is going to cost me an extra worker. Hence, player demand drives the mechanism. In AFfO, it is much more static. This, coupled with the fact that most of the action spaces in AFfO are of the collect this or collect that variety, the entire implementation of the worker placement mechanism has a very “been there/done that” feel to it. There are a few spaces that require some risk assessment as a die is involved, but those spaces are not enough to erase the banality of everything else.

4)Boring chits. I think Rosenberg struck gold with Patchwork. It is an exercise in topology with an infusion of currency and a game clock you feel ticking loud in your ear from the moment it starts. The game features very interesting shapes that challenge you to arrange them as efficiently as possible on your quilt. Cottage Garden used many of the same ideas. Jump ahead to AFfO and we see Rosenberg attempting to expand these ideas and marry them to elements of his other games (worker placement, specialist cards, feeding, etc). However, one of the elements I find the most fun in Patchwork is removed here, the oddly shaped pieces. Sure there are some interestingly shaped treasures on one of the many boards, but the bulk of the tiles you will be collecting and furiously arranging to cover all those -1’s are just different sizes of rectangles. Add to that, the pictures on the tiles are some of the most irrelevant graphics I have ever seen in a game. Perhaps they were to remind you that you are collecting Viking plunder; it didn’t work. Someone must have realized how mundane this was and introduced a rule that would surely interject some excitement back into the exercise: you can’t put green next to green. Someone please slap me.


5)Did we really need to feed our workers? I don’t mind the tension needed to pay for the actions and availability of workers in a game, if done right. In Stone Age, feeding has the right level of focus. Collecting food is not obstructively difficult and the penalties are stiff but can be overcome (starving can win, but it can also be beaten). In Agricola, the tension may be a tad TOO high. Caylus is probably another example in which the tension to collect income to pay for workers is correctly calibrated for the weight of the game. In AFfO, the feeding seems pointless and tacked on. There are several points in the game where everyone gets to harvest (i.e. collect free tiles). The harvests are automatic and everyone collects the same tiles. You can earn a few extra by surrounding some key spots on your player board. So the game requires you to feed, but then gives you nearly everything you need to feed anyway. So why even include it? It could have been more interesting to perhaps have a minimum feeding requirement but award some type of bonus for providing extra (it is supposed to be a feast after all). As is, though, the requirement seems silly and unnecessary.

I suppose I could list more sins here, but I think I have covered enough. I hope this game is a glitch in the evolution of euro game design, but I fear it may be more of a trend. Gamers seem to be increasingly attracted to big huge boxes with dozens of sheets to punch. There must be some type of cardboard high when two tables have to be shoved together to contain all the bits. But I must be incapable of this type of euphoria as when I see a game like this, it is becoming more and more likely to turn me away. I want smaller boxes that have quality but fewer bits and games that actually give me room to breathe and think without processing mountains of tiny text and tidal waves of chits. I want games to challenge me without needlessly overwhelming me.
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
You sound like a grumpy old man.

Incidentally, you also sound like me.
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Patchwork was an offshoot from the development of AFFO so didn't effect feast at all.
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Fabian
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
I just got the game punched today and it is indeed a massive mountain of bits, many of which look very similar, but I don't think I'm as jaded as you yet. I can appreciate a simple game, but a real cardboard avalanche also has its merits.

Sometimes I actually enjoy complexity for complexity's sake, even if the game in question turns out to lack depth in the end. I know, what a sacriligious opinion!
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Rob M.
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
I have to agree. After my first play I was really intrigued and looked forward to a second play. After the second play my primary question was "why in the heck can I not store mead next to [whatever]?". The puzzle piecing just wrecks the game for me. The worker placement mechanic and theme, hunting, gathering, exploring, settling, trading, pillaging, whaling is really nifty but I am not going to be asking to play this game a third time.
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Darryl with one "R"
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
nhjelmberg wrote:
You sound like a grumpy old man.

Incidentally, you also sound like me.

Too true. For the past couple of years, whenever I've seen a post by David, I've read it in my head using the voice of Grampa Simpson.

I also envision David as the kind of person who says, "Back in my day..." at least once a day.
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Ryan M
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
AS someone who loves puzzly type games, I really was surprised by how much I enjoyed AFFO. I was reluctant to buy it because of the size, table space requirement, and the related cost. But my wife and I are big Rosenberg fans and because of the "same-y-ness" of his games I've skipped a bunch of them. So AFFO and it's open world, free feel has been a hit with us and I've already played it like 7 times since it came out which is pretty huge for this type of game at our house.

Regarding the feeding, I think it is really there more as a way to encourage people to emigrate rather than to be a real roadblock or deterrent. And in a 4p game, having to feed your workers while others have emigrated can put you at a real disadvantage.

While I personally really enjoy the game and disagree with your opinion, I thumbed the review because I think you do make very good points and people do need to be aware of certain "negatives" that may be part of this game. Even as a fan of Rosenberg and this game, I can't disagree with many of your comments.
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Aernout Casier
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Close to 20 games in I have fallen madly in love with this Uwe. I would be hard pressed to decide whether A (delicious) Feast for Odin or (beautiful) Fields of Arle is my favourite of his designs.
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
pfctsqr wrote:
2)And about those action spaces.But there is near nothing in the graphics that is in the least bit evocative of any activity that might be interesting to a Viking.


Have you examined the category illustrations to the left of each action row? I think they're very well done and evocative indeed. Yes, it's a small touch on a board which mostly just conveys a LOT of information and if you don't like it you don't like it - but there is an artistic thematic touch.


pfctsqr wrote:
3)A worker placement mechanism with no real twist.


You're quite right - there is no real twist here. But that only matters if you think twists on solid mechanics are necessary. Evidently you do - I don't. There's nothing wrong with your opinion, as long as its perfectly clear that novelty of mechanics does not necessarily make a good game and a good game does not necessarily need to strive for novelty.

pfctsqr wrote:
4)Boring chits.

I think this is a really interesting positive space/negative space issue. It seems to me like Uwe designed a puzzle game in which the pieces themselves didn't need to be exotic and weird shaped and difficult to fit together because the space on which they're fitting is what makes the puzzle. you might have a bunch of squares and rectangles but they won't do you a whole lot of good if you can't just put them down like that around island coastlines or around bonuses. Not only is the puzzle in the negative space but it actually gives you some decisions to make as well, do you go for the easier puzzle and get less bonuses or not?

In short, Uwe has shown us in this game that you can't tell how good a puzzle will be just by looking at the pieces. What looks like boring pieces all of the sudden become very challenging bits to fit into the puzzle if the spaces are well designed and that's absolutely what he's done in AFfO: He's given us some really good spaces to fit these pieces into.
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
AernoutMJC wrote:
Close to 20 games in I have fallen madly in love with this Uwe. I would be hard pressed to decide whether A (delicious) Feast for Odin or (beautiful) Fields of Arle is my favourite of his designs.


I feel very much the same! (Although I've not given up on my first love, Agricola).
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Sam Hillier
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Thanks for sharing your perspective on this! While I may not fall as close to the old school, Knizia-type elegance that you prefer, I'm definitely closer to that end of the spectrum than Feast For Odin on the other end. I appreciate your jaded, old man commentary, as a burgeoning jaded old man myself
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Jason Lukac
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
It was blah for me as well. Too much stuff. Too little acts. And feeding is annoying to boot. A solid pass for me.
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Robert Carper
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
I've played it twice and its kinda meh for me too. Especially if another player really knows how to get that engine going with Emmigration.
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Ryan Feathers
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Excellent meh/negative review!

I'm a huge fanboy of this game as evidenced by my numerous contributions to session reports, reviews, and strategy comments, so I personally don't share your opinion on this game. But I do find most of your points to be true and well thought out, so thanks for that. I really do value negative/meh reviews and frankly I should make some myself more often. (As I value them greatly but have never contributed one myself).

My only main qualm is that this game does have a pretty good level of depth. I understand those who may not wish to explore it and its certainly not worth finding if you don't enjoy the game. It isn't incredibly deep, and for the numbers of components and rules something like Terra Mystica creates a much richer and deeper game capable of much more strategic analysis. Still plenty can be discovered in AFFO.

Apart from that though, great points. You're absolutely right that the feasting is rarely a source of tension or interesting decisions, the board is a thinly veiled spreadsheet, there are tons of components, and the worker placement decisions are that like you'll find in pretty much any other. If you're looking for a game that is fairly thematic, has relatively simple yet deep gameplay, contains relatively few components, and has some innovative ideas, AFFO isn't a game for you.

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David B
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
One thing I've noticed here is that Rosenbger fans are a classy bunch. I thought there was a chance I was going to get flamed for my review. But those who disagree with my opinion have contributed some great comments. You guys are all awesome.
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Fabrice Dubois
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
lincudine wrote:
Nicely done David. I agree this game is a hot mess. And extremely dull. Amazing to me the time they spent researching all those historical bits for a game where none of the actual thematic ideas, or even immersion in the setting matter at all, in fact, mostly the opposite. I get why its popular with the euro puzzler optimiser crowd but I think this was awful. I still keep coming back to Agricola, I think its just (by accident I wonder) that one just feels like everything hangs together properly. Fields of Arle was OK but just a bit too easy, "do your own thing"y and not enough variation. The expansion will probably help with that. The more I reflected on this game the more awful I think it is. But, obviously I'm in a minority on that one.

Exactly the opposite here : i can't stand Agricola but i felt in love with Fields of Arle and A Feast for Odin precisely because feeding is annoying but not overly important so you can try/explore more valuable paths than just feeding for feeding. Agricola is samey to me because of feeding while Fields of Arle and A Feast for Odin are more open-ended to me.
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Nicholas Hjelmberg
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
pfctsqr wrote:
One thing I've noticed here is that Rosenbger fans are a classy bunch. I thought there was a chance I was going to get flamed for my review. But those who disagree with my opinion have contributed some great comments. You guys are all awesome.


I thought Rosenberger fans were more subtle - they simply starve their adversaries to death.
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Ryan Abrams
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Great review! I sort of agree. I really admire games that accomplish a lot with a little, but I also enjoy my table-eaters. And to that extent, and for the spatial aspects, I enjoy AFFO. But to be honest, I'd choose Caverna over it every time. Even though it has a huge board of buildings and such, it just feels way less cluttered.
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Frank Calcagno
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
From one old geezer to another (and a Virginian t'boot), I heard my wife audibly moan when I opened the box to AFFO. (I think I also heard, "Oh, no." from the darkened corner.)

So, how do I feel? I hear ya man, it's an embarrassment of riches, but you know, sometimes drowning in cardboard is just what I want. (And this comes from an old ASL play tester, so...whistle)

What can you say about a Viking game with 6 types of vegetables and fruit? It's kind of SO ridiculous, that it (in my mind) makes fun of itself while you play. Perhaps Uwe didn't intend that, but it is sort of like an over-the-top Jerry Lewis movie (may he rest in peace). In some ways, its sheer extravagance sings to me. Pure, stupid opulence for the sake of MORE CHITS. It's almost like one of those annoying lap dogs that beg for attention (or your ankle). You just got to love it.

I am still working out the puzzle of placement, and as said above ^ the negative space of the placement mats is what makes the puzzle of all those over-sized rectangles zing. (Again, thoughts of the rear end of a lap dog sticking out of a small hole comes to mind...) (Hole in a door, by the way.)

I'm recently into Eurogames, but I kind of like this one. I do find theme in it...but I truly do appreciate and resonate with your comments. Thanks for the review.

Regarding getting dissed by the classy crowd.....
I envision a gaggle of Europeans, sipping tea with two perfectly placed fingers, nonchalantly making notice of "Those Americans coming in..." It is very nice here, after coming directly from the First Martians crowd over there.... >cry
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Every one of your complaints is a reason I am interested in this game, with the exception of "boring chits". I'm neutral on the chits. I like fancier things, but am willing to compromise for the right game. I am certain this is the right game. But I'm a huge Uwe fan. Caverna and Fields of Arle are among my favorite games. So more of the same is exactly what I want. And in many ways, literally MORE. I'm glad this game is a component festival. Probably to excess. I want that excess.

As a specific point, with the exception of Agricola, I find feeding as more or less a trap in all of Uwe's games to catch less experienced players. Those who are less experienced with Fields of Arle, Caverna, FFO will spend the entire game focused on nothing but feeding, afraid to grow their worker count and end with low scores. Those with more experience will know ways to take this stress off. In Fields of Arle feeding isn't even a thought of mine anymore because it's very easy to get done. Then you're free to focus on score maximization through the various mechanisms. The feeding here is similar. It catches inexperienced players and focuses a particular line of thought in consideration, in this case in relation to balancing quality of goods.

TLDR: To each their own, but I disagree with the complaints and see most of them as positives.

Edits: Mostly missed letters.
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Frank Calcagno
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
nhjelmberg wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
One thing I've noticed here is that Rosenbger fans are a classy bunch. I thought there was a chance I was going to get flamed for my review. But those who disagree with my opinion have contributed some great comments. You guys are all awesome.


I thought Rosenberger fans were more subtle - they simply starve their adversaries to death.


And speaking of classy: Nicholas, I really do not mean this, but I cannot resist the joke. This is NOT meant to flame you or anyone but it is just too irresistible to pass up, and said in good spirit:

No, Rosenberg fans are much more subtle - they simply bore their adversaries to death...
(Truly, I don't mean that!!! I love Rosenberg fans!!!!!)kiss
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Andrew J
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
patrocles wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
4)Boring chits.

I think this is a really interesting positive space/negative space issue. It seems to me like Uwe designed a puzzle game in which the pieces themselves didn't need to be exotic and weird shaped and difficult to fit together because the space on which they're fitting is what makes the puzzle. you might have a bunch of squares and rectangles but they won't do you a whole lot of good if you can't just put them down like that around island coastlines or around bonuses. Not only is the puzzle in the negative space but it actually gives you some decisions to make as well, do you go for the easier puzzle and get less bonuses or not?

In short, Uwe has shown us in this game that you can't tell how good a puzzle will be just by looking at the pieces. What looks like boring pieces all of the sudden become very challenging bits to fit into the puzzle if the spaces are well designed and that's absolutely what he's done in AFfO: He's given us some really good spaces to fit these pieces into.


Yes. I also think the puzzle aspect is spot on here. Originally, I too thought that the puzzle aspect would be compromised by the relative small number of uniquely-shaped pieces. After all, as noted, how hard can it really be to fill a space with differently-shaped squares and rectangles?

However, after just a few plays of the game, I realized how superficial my original critique was. The puzzling aspect is great (notwithstanding the rectangular shape of the vast majority of the pieces) because of all of the other mechanics at play in how the pieces are placed, including:

1) Building around oddly-shaped coastlines or other obstacles, as noted above (at least if you take an exploration board, longhouse, etc.).

2) Building to collect income and bonuses: this isn't a game where you can just collect a massive number of tiles over various rounds and then just place them on the board at the end of the game and proclaim victory because the board is covered. You have to be building in such a way that you are efficiently gaining bonuses and increasing your income, because otherwise you will be sub-optimally placing your Vikings on actions to get silver or items that better board play would have put you in a position to receive for free. That means wasted actions that will penalize you in the long run.

3) The size that the tiles aren't: This is the problem of the 1x1 gap. "But I'll just fill those with silver!" you think. Well, every silver placed on your board is one less point you get at the end of the game. Thus, you have to efficiently place tiles around bonuses, in a way that generates income, without leaving 1x1 gaps that you have to fill with silver since at best that's a -1 point proposition for each silver you place. On home and exploration boards you can also use ore to fill a 1x1 gap, but there are generally vastly superior uses for ore (if you even have it) than using it to fill a 1x1 space. This type of thing is probably why the Euro puzzle-optimizers love this game.

4) The green/blue distinction. This is far from being a tacked on element because the puzzle is otherwise boring (because it could still be interesting given what I noted above)--rather, it is essential when combined with the fact that the tiles themselves do not grant points (other than the English crown). They are effectively worth points to the extent that they cover up -1 spaces, but otherwise they only matter to the extent they are helping you get bonuses or higher income. Because you can use green AND blue tiles to cover the board, it is generally inefficient to change all of your tiles to blue tiles so you have maximum placement flexibility--rather, because of the extra Vikings it takes to convert green tiles to blue tiles (although there are more and less efficient ways to do this), optimally one would have a board filled with as many green tiles as possible with only blue to fill in the necessary gaps, which in itself makes another layer to the puzzle. Again--another reason why Euro puzzle-optimizers love this.


In short, I agree with the above--you can't really assess how interesting/uninteresting this puzzle is just by looking at the shape of the pieces. Well, except that interesting/uninteresting is a subjective evaluation, so maybe you can.
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David Luchetti
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
pfctsqr wrote:
One thing I've noticed here is that Rosenbger fans are a classy bunch. I thought there was a chance I was going to get flamed for my review. But those who disagree with my opinion have contributed some great comments. You guys are all awesome.

So true! When I saw the title of this thread I kinda expected a flame war!

BTW - I love AFfO 9/10 game for me
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Mike Forrey
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
For me i just could never get into the other UWE games but after playing this one i found the one game he made that i really like to play. My wife loves it even more than i do. I think it's the puzzle aspect that keeps us coming back. It is good to see a more negative review of the game though so others get a different perspective of a game like this especially with the price tag on it.
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J. Chris Miller
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Re: Vikings Gone "Meh"
Lots of actions and even separate islands to conquer and explore? It truly is a feast for me.
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