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Subject: Timing of Retreat/Reform rss

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Bruce Geryk
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I think I am reading this right, but I wanted to confirm that the movement of the Retreat and Reform markers occurs AFTER the Initiative Phase, since it says "at the end of the Allied player turn." Thus, if the Retreat marker is in the 7 box when the Allied Initiative Phase starts, the Allied player does NOT have to declare first Initiative - but if he/she does not then the marker will move to the 8 box and on the following Initiative Phase, the Allied player will have to declare Initiative and the Lithuanian Retreat will happen.

This is also why the Reform marker is placed in the 1 box on the same turn the Retreat occurs: because it is a marker advancement that happens AFTER the Initiative Phase is over, while the actual Retreat (and the Reform, which includes three hexes of movement) occurs DURING AND AS PART OF the Initiative Phase.

Thus, the Lithuanian Retreat/Reform markers are advanced in what is effectively a Marker Phase that occurs after the Allied Initiative Phase.

Is that all correct?

Actually, to be technically correct, there is a Teutonic Victory Check Phase that happens after the Allied Initiative Phase and the putative Allied Marker Move Phase. (And there is an Allied Victory Check Phase that occurs after the Teutonic Initiative Phase.)

Please correct as necessary.
 
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Tom Russell
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Yes, because the Retreat marker is only moved if Initiative is not declared, the marker would be moved after the Initiative Phase. The same would hold true for the Reform.

If it makes it easier to think of it as a Marker Phase, then the sequence of events at the end of the turn would be:

Initiative Phase
Marker Move Phase (Allied only)
Other Guy's Victory Check Phase

Though really, if said Other Guy is going to win anyway, probably it's fine to skip the Initiative and Marker Move Phases. :-)

Thanks for the questions. I'm probably not as exacting about precise sequence of these "end of turn" steps as I should be, and this is another reminder to step up my game, as it were.
 
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Bruce Geryk
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tomrussell wrote:
If it makes it easier to think of it as a Marker Phase, then the sequence of events at the end of the turn would be:

Initiative Phase
Marker Move Phase (Allied only)
Other Guy's Victory Check Phase


But p. 3 of the special rules says, "at the end of each subsequent Allied Player Turn, after the Teutonic player checks for Victory, the Allied player will either Reform his Orange wing or advance the Reform marker along the track. So Teutonic Victory Check Phase would have to happen before Marker Move Phase.

A new problem is that this actually causes a direct conflict with the first para of Lithuanian Retreat & Reform on p. 2, because p. 3 implies that the Reform is done AFTER the Initiative Phase is over. So how could the Allied player declare Initiative after the Reform happens? I thought you only declared Initiative during the Initiative Phase? Is there a special post-Reform Second Initiative that happens on the Reform turn?
 
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Tom Russell
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Brooski wrote:
tomrussell wrote:
If it makes it easier to think of it as a Marker Phase, then the sequence of events at the end of the turn would be:

Initiative Phase
Marker Move Phase (Allied only)
Other Guy's Victory Check Phase


But p. 3 of the special rules says, "at the end of each subsequent Allied Player Turn, after the Teutonic player checks for Victory, the Allied player will either Reform his Orange wing or advance the Reform marker along the track.


Oops, that's what I get for answering the question while listening to Wild Weasel. :-)

The Victory Check is made before declaring Initiative. Sorry about that.

Before the Retreat, if you do not Declare Initiative during the Initiative Phase, the Marker advances (call this the marker advancement phase); if you do Declare Initiative, then the Retreat is performed and the Reform marker is placed.

The decision to Reform on the other hand, is made before the Initiative Phase, and so the Reform marker is moved before the Initiative Phase.

So --

Before Retreat:

Victory Check
Initiative Phase
Marker Advances if you don't declare Initiative

After Retreat, Before Reform:

Victory Check
Reform decision (yes or no)
Marker Advances if you don't Reform
Take Initiative Marker if you do
Initiative Phase

Which is why the Allied Player can potentially get three turns in a row --

1. Don't reform, but decide to declare Initiative
2. At the end of second turn, reform, giving you the Initiative marker, and then you declare Initiative
3. Third turn, in which the other guy is muttering under his breath

Mea culpa for the confusion, though in my defense, it's not my fault Wild Weasel is so entertaining and distracting. :-)
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Bruce Geryk
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tomrussell wrote:

So --

Before Retreat:

Victory Check
Initiative Phase
Marker Advances if you don't declare Initiative

After Retreat, Before Reform:

Victory Check
Reform decision (yes or no)
Marker Advances if you don't Reform
Take Initiative Marker if you do
Initiative Phase


Then this creates a conflict with 13.0 Victory Points on p. 7 of the series rules, which says that, "a player achieves his Victory Conditions by having reached a certain number of Victory Points when the game indicates he is to check for victory. This check is commonly made at the end of his opponent's turn (not his own)." emphasis mine

Presumably, the Initiative Phase is part of the Allied Player Turn, so Teutonic Victory Check should come AFTER this?

So maybe this should get spelled out as an exception in the game-specific rules?

Maybe you need to come on WW and talk about game rules :)
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Tom Russell
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Brooski wrote:

Then this creates a conflict with 13.0 Victory Points on p. 7 of the series rules, which says that, "a player achieves his Victory Conditions by having reached a certain number of Victory Points when the game indicates he is to check for victory. This check is commonly made at the end of his opponent's turn (not his own)." emphasis mine

Presumably, the Initiative Phase is part of the Allied Player Turn, so Teutonic Victory Check should come AFTER this?

So maybe this should get spelled out as an exception in the game-specific rules?


I get what you're saying, and, yes, the Initiative Phase is part of the turn. The general/series rule does state that the check is commonly made at the end of his opponent's turn, but the specific rule in the battle book for this game - and, upon review, pretty much every scenario/game in the series - is that the check be made before the acting player "has a chance to Declare Initiative or Reform."

Quote:
Maybe you need to come on WW and talk about game rules


It'd be an honor and a pleasure. Just let me know when. :-)
 
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