Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Variants

Subject: question about to how word a card for a custom hero rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am making my first custom heroes (based of my old Champions characters). The team leader is a teleporting martial artist called Hidden Dragon. Think Jet Li combined with Nightcrawler.

Anyway, I wanted an ongoing card that would allow him to ignore villain effects that makes targets immune, such as Blade's Mobile Defense Platform or Citizen Truth's ability (thematically, he is teleporting past/through them to get to the target he wants). Is there a way this can be done using standard Sentinels wording?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Avatar
Villain targets cannot be immune to damage, would be my guess?

Having said that, I think that might be kind of risky, as it would allow you to ignore some potentially fairly key effects - for example you could kill Chairman right away without dealing with his minions. You could also sit safely behind a Meteor Storm... Irreducible might be safer?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adelphophage wrote:
Villain targets cannot be immune to damage, would be my guess?

Having said that, I think that might be kind of risky, as it would allow you to ignore some potentially fairly key effects - for example you could kill Chairman right away without dealing with his minions. You could also sit safely behind a Meteor Storm... Irreducible might be safer?

yeah, there could be some issues. I want to be able to say, ignore a Mobile defense Platform but not a flipped Citizen Dawn or start side of The Chairman.

I'm not familiar with all the cards so this may not work, but I guess I want something that ignores one card making another card immune, but not ignoring when a card makes itself immune.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benj Davis
Australia
Summer Hill
NSW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm. Maybe specify non-character cards?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
would this work:

Blink - In Your Face
Ongoing, Blink
While this card is in play, Dragon may ignore a target's immunity to damage if that immunity is provided by another card.

At the end of your turn, destroy this card

or

While this card is in play, all non-character villain cards are considered blank

At the end of your turn, destroy this card

Yes, it's strong, basically debuffing everything the villain has out, but also means there is only 1 villain target to attack, and Dragon's inherent power is defensive, so he'd need another ongoing out with an attack power before using this card and his attack powers are fairly limited.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maciej Stępiński
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Those villains are immune to damage for a very good reason. Trying to change it will break the game more often than make it interesting.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jettosan wrote:
Those villains are immune to damage for a very good reason. Trying to change it will break the game more often than make it interesting.

I don't believe that some effects are sacrosanct and can't be altered by other effects.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan Thurston
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DragonsDream wrote:
Jettosan wrote:
Those villains are immune to damage for a very good reason. Trying to change it will break the game more often than make it interesting.

I don't believe that some effects are sacrosanct and can't be altered by other effects.
Sure, you can, but it may not be a good idea. I think we agreed that The Chairman on his first side should remain immune. Fortunately we've seen almost all the villains by now, so can check case-by-case that you're not breaking an immunity that shouldn't be broken (until OblivAeon arrives).

Instead of the clunky wording about "provided by another card", what about referring to "non-character cards"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Bishop
United States
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmb
DragonsDream wrote:
I don't believe that some effects are sacrosanct and can't be altered by other effects.
I'm not sure he's claiming they are. But let me voice a similar opinion phrased a different way (paraphrased from another post).

Immunity is a "can't effect"; in this case "can't take damage." What you're positing is an effect that says "can't take damage can't happen".

I'm not a fan of "can't can't" effects". Two reasons: 1) "can'ts" are fairly limited, so countering them is a very niche utility, and 2) they're supposed to make you figure out a way around them; the AI in this game is already simplistic, so just ignoring its puzzles defeats the point.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tosx wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
I don't believe that some effects are sacrosanct and can't be altered by other effects.
I'm not sure he's claiming they are. But let me voice a similar opinion phrased a different way (paraphrased from another post).

Immunity is a "can't effect"; in this case "can't take damage." What you're positing is an effect that says "can't take damage can't happen".

I'm not a fan of "can't can't" effects". Two reasons: 1) "can'ts" are fairly limited, so countering them is a very niche utility, and 2) they're supposed to make you figure out a way around them; the AI in this game is already simplistic, so just ignoring its puzzles defeats the point.

you are right. Immunity is a fairly limited effect. I should use my own lessons from Small World race design and not make a power that exists only to target some other power.

I guess what I want here is a character that can, one time, teleport past the effects of other cards and get right up to the target he wants to attack. Given that, and not wanting to do a "can't have can't" kind of thing, how about:

"choose a non-hero target. while this card is in play Dragon may treat all other cards except the target and his own as if they were blank. At the end of your turn, destroy this card"

Thematically being that the target is completely isolated/removed from the main battle. would something like that work?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan Thurston
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DragonsDream wrote:
"choose a non-hero target. while this card is in play Dragon may treat all other cards except the target and his own as if they were blank. At the end of your turn, destroy this card"
I'm reminded of Miss Information's card Isolated Hero, which is indeed thematically similar.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dthurston wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
"choose a non-hero target. while this card is in play Dragon may treat all other cards except the target and his own as if they were blank. At the end of your turn, destroy this card"
I'm reminded of Miss Information's card Isolated Hero, which is indeed thematically similar.

I know there was a villain with a card like that. couldn't remember who. that is a good template to work from then.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dylan Thurston
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DragonsDream wrote:
dthurston wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
"choose a non-hero target. while this card is in play Dragon may treat all other cards except the target and his own as if they were blank. At the end of your turn, destroy this card"
I'm reminded of Miss Information's card Isolated Hero, which is indeed thematically similar.

I know there was a villain with a card like that. couldn't remember who. that is a good template to work from then.
It's worth mentioning that this card causes many questions about exactly how it works. I think they are covered in the "Fireside chats" for the video game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dthurston wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
dthurston wrote:
DragonsDream wrote:
"choose a non-hero target. while this card is in play Dragon may treat all other cards except the target and his own as if they were blank. At the end of your turn, destroy this card"
I'm reminded of Miss Information's card Isolated Hero, which is indeed thematically similar.

I know there was a villain with a card like that. couldn't remember who. that is a good template to work from then.
It's worth mentioning that this card causes many questions about exactly how it works. I think they are covered in the "Fireside chats" for the video game.
I can see that. seems like the "treat as blank" is a clearer method. "treat as blank" seems like a less fiddly way of saying "place all non-character villain and environment cards in play under this card. When this car is destroyed, return them to play" Might not work for Isolated hero since that is two-way preventing the hero card from affecting anyone else as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brain craft
msg tools
I think that you're trying to get around a broad class of mechanical effects with a broad range of narrative causes with a single card (and therefore a single mechanical effect) and a single narrative action. You are inevitably going to run into cases where your single narrative action does not make sense, or your single mechanical effect does not produce the effect you want.

The only three villain cards you are trying to counter are Mobile Defense Platform, Citizen Truth, and Misplaced Memo. It's not even clear that teleportation would give narrative license to ignore those cards, since to some degree MDP and Misplaced Memo have to do with the target being hidden rather than protected, and I don't recall whether the exact nature of Citizen Truth's power was ever specified, so it might not be something you can teleport around.

I'd just go with an attack that is irreducible and un-redirectable, which would get around the majority of other defense effects and should satisfy the feeling of doing an end-run around defenses.

(I also feel that Citizen Truth in particular is kind of a bad card from early in the game's history that wouldn't be implemented in such a manner today.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Webb
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
braincraft wrote:
I think that you're trying to get around a broad class of mechanical effects with a broad range of narrative causes with a single card (and therefore a single mechanical effect) and a single narrative action. You are inevitably going to run into cases where your single narrative action does not make sense, or your single mechanical effect does not produce the effect you want.

The only three villain cards you are trying to counter are Mobile Defense Platform, Citizen Truth, and Misplaced Memo. It's not even clear that teleportation would give narrative license to ignore those cards, since to some degree MDP and Misplaced Memo have to do with the target being hidden rather than protected, and I don't recall whether the exact nature of Citizen Truth's power was ever specified, so it might not be something you can teleport around.

I'd just go with an attack that is irreducible and un-redirectable, which would get around the majority of other defense effects and should satisfy the feeling of doing an end-run around defenses.

(I also feel that Citizen Truth in particular is kind of a bad card from early in the game's history that wouldn't be implemented in such a manner today.)


Citizen Truth's shield is a strong as the conviction of his attacker (or his own conviction/will? Wasn't real clear on that) which is why Chrono Ranger can blow him away, but his shield literally breaks Absolution (Fanatic's sword).

As for doing the immunity, rather than teleporting behind an opponents defense, you could consider the idea that his teleportation is temporarily bringing his target outof reality, leaving them vulnerable to him.

In either case you can go with the isolated hero wording which would go something like "Place this card next to a target. The card next to this one cannot be affected by any cards other than yours.

At the end of your turn, destroy thiscard."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff B.
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
I would consider making the effect a power that encompassed the effect, something like:

Unstoppable Attack.
Ongoing
Power: The Dragon deals one target 2 damage. You may discard a card, if you do, that damage may not be reduced, redirected or prevented.


If the deck has ways to boost his damage I'd make it 1 damage. You could add "by non-character cards to the end if desired.


There are already in the game ways to get around damage prevention and redirection to finish off a target, and you could base a card on that.

Finishing strike.
Ongoing
When The Dragon would deal damage you may discard a card, if you do, destroy a target with X or fewer hp instead, where X is the amount of damage The Dragon would deal. Then destroy this card.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Avatar
Now that I think a bit harder about this, I'm not sure it has much of a niche anyway? The key is that it only works for Dragon himself, not any of his team, and it doesn't DEAL with the problem, just temporarily ignores it.

Imagine we're fighting Baron Blade, and the cheeky fellow dumps out an MDP. We've got 4 heroes, say for sake of simplicity we each deal 5 damage.

Normally, first two heroes kill the MDP, second two heroes hit Blade for 10.

If one of our heroes is Dragon he can ignore the MDP and hit Blade for 5, then heroes 2-3 kill the MDp, last one hits the Baron, again we've killed the MDP and hit Baron for 10. The issue is that even if Dragon can get past the wall, the rest of the team can't, so we still have to beat down the MDP so everyone else can attack. We still need to kill that 10HP. It could potentially matter if Blade is on something like 5 HP and Dragon could kill him without the teams help, but that's REALLY infrequent

The same applies to Citizen Truth - sure, *I* can ignore him, but the rest of the team can't, he still absolutely needs to die otherwise everyone else is twiddling their thumbs. Every now and then it's slightly better (maybe we don't have the firepower to kill Truth this turn, and Dragon can pick off Hammer in the meantime), but it's going to be VERY rare.

Hypothetically if it gave everyone the ignoring-prevention ability for the turn (teleporting the team?) it could be useful, but then only if the boss is low enough we can collectively kill the boss in that particular turn - if not then next turn hey, that MDP is still there, still needs to killed, and we just delayed that for a turn.



I do like the theme of a teleporter say jumping inside the MDP or past Truth to hit the boss, but it seems with this implementation the gameplay isn't going to mean much the vast majority of the time.

Based on my experience, I would say generally trying to build a card to work well thematically against a particular villain card doesn't tend to end well, there are so many villains it's very often junk. This teleporting does make sense against MDP (even if the gameplay is a bit wonky) but against a hell of a lot of villains it makes no sense. By the same token "Destroy a device" makes a lot of sense against a handful of villains, but is utterly dead against many more.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ted Pro
United States
California
flag msg tools
mb
How about this?

Quote:
Bypass Obstacle
One-Shot
Flip one non-hero card face down until the end of your turn.


Or, to help with the timing issue Adelphophage points out:

Quote:
Bypass Obstacle
One-Shot
Flip one non-indestructible card face down until the start of your next turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.