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Subject: Supplies from Outer Planets. rss

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Pawel Garycki
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As there are no Supplies in Stations (rather 3 kinds of sub-supplies), how to interpret Supplies found in the outer planets' moons? Can they provide food and spare parts instead? This begs official clarification for OP owners.
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Samuel Argento
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In addition, in Outer Planets there are certain moons that by their atmosphere, could also synthesize fuel (Europe and Titan)

Edit: No features for OP?
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Pawel Garycki
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kalesin wrote:
In addition, in Outer Planets there are certain moons that by their atmosphere, could also synthesize fuel (Europe and Titan)

Edit: No features for OP?

The author said in the Rulebook that Stations focus on the Inner Planets. Therefore there will be no feature cards on the Outer Planets. However Outer Planets have their own system of explorable missions which are sort of features (half-way between vanilla LE and Stations).
Supplies are the only thing in OP (so far) explicitly colliding with Station rules - since we don't know if e.g. manned mission to Saturn Station can survive on its moon with found supplies. In my opinion "supplies" from the Outer Planets should be treated exactly as they were, that is their use follow the old rules (you can feed astronauts and repair a damaged component).

To make Station components worth sending to Jupiter and Saturn orbit (to fulfill two important missions), there should be a kind of reward.
1.One of them is universal use of Outer Planet's Supplies, which is straightforward.
2.The other way is a one-off (per source) ability to send OP samples worth cash to Stations (an already proposed variant).
3.Another proposal: Whenever a Pilot goes through a maneuver to an OP target or a Rover is used on an OP surface, you may draw one random additional mission matching the target's location type. If no matching are left, take any unmatched one, if any, and put it face down. It is now used as a basis for the Occupation mission (earning 6VP per year). Only one such activity per target. (making Rovers useful in OP; this way a H.O.P.E. mission to Callisto is smartly reflected and manned OP missions do not duplicate)

As there will be an ammendment to the Station rules nevertheless, why not to consider other ammendments regarding Outer Planets? Even proposed as optional rules.

(edit: linked 3&4 proposals into 1)
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Joe Fatula
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improove wrote:
As there are no Supplies in Stations (rather 3 kinds of sub-supplies), how to interpret Supplies found in the outer planets' moons? Can they provide food and spare parts instead? This begs official clarification for OP owners.

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.

I'll make a note of that in the next Stations rulebook.
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Samuel Argento
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buffalohat wrote:

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.


Personally, I just do not like that option.
There is no way it is random, it can be one of 3 different types of supplies randomly?
 
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Joe Fatula
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kalesin wrote:
buffalohat wrote:

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.


Personally, I just do not like that option.
There is no way it is random, it can be one of 3 different types of supplies randomly?


If you try that variant, I'd be glad to hear how it goes.
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Pawel Garycki
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buffalohat wrote:
kalesin wrote:
buffalohat wrote:

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.


Personally, I just do not like that option.
There is no way it is random, it can be one of 3 different types of supplies randomly?


If you try that variant, I'd be glad to hear how it goes.


If anyone also try variants 2. and 3. of mine I'd also be glad!
 
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Pawel Garycki
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kalesin wrote:
buffalohat wrote:

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.


Personally, I just do not like that option.
There is no way it is random, it can be one of 3 different types of supplies randomly?


Food supply in those locations is crucial for balance of manned missions to those systems. In my opinion it should be at least food there.

I would rather see some kinds of supplies on OP locations based on what is there:
a) an OP location with supplies or ocean under thin ice has food available
b) an OP location with life symbol has medical supplies available
c) an OP location with geyser symbol, volcanic activity or atmosphere can convert spare parts to fuel
d) an OP location with valuable samples has spare parts available

We can also focus on icons only:
a) an OP location with supplies symbol has food available
b) an OP location with life symbol has medical supplies available
c) an OP location with geyser symbol can convert spare parts to fuel
d) an OP location with valuable samples symbol has spare parts available
This solution can be easily visualized in a rulebook with no ambiguities.
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Samuel Argento
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buffalohat wrote:
kalesin wrote:
buffalohat wrote:

Locations in Outer Planets that are listed as providing supplies actually provide food when used with Stations.


Personally, I just do not like that option.
There is no way it is random, it can be one of 3 different types of supplies randomly?


If you try that variant, I'd be glad to hear how it goes.


When I get STATIONS expansion, I will test the variant and write feedback.

improove wrote:


Food supply in those locations is crucial for balance of manned missions to those systems. In my opinion it should be at least food there.

I would rather see some kinds of supplies on OP locations based on what is there:
a) an OP location with supplies or ocean under thin ice has food available
b) an OP location with life symbol has medical supplies available
c) an OP location with geyser symbol, volcanic activity or atmosphere can convert spare parts to fuel
d) an OP location with valuable samples has spare parts available

We can also focus on icons only:
a) an OP location with supplies symbol has food available
b) an OP location with life symbol has medical supplies available
c) an OP location with geyser symbol can convert spare parts to fuel
d) an OP location with valuable samples symbol has spare parts available
This solution can be easily visualized in a rulebook with no ambiguities.


The ideas are good, but the rules are much better.

Adding exceptions always complicates the game mechanism, draw random supply is easier to implement and understanding than having a list.
Likewise, you can try to see how it works.
 
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Pawel Garycki
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Let's analyse random supplies concept from the perspective of game balance.

1.Manned mission to the nearby locations heavily rely of the presence of those supplies. If they are random, there will be 2/3 chance of those missions to be affected. Not only is the supply location merely a chance to appear - with randomized supplies it will be even more chance to find food there.
2.On the other hand Life areas are spammed in Outer Planets and visible from flybys, making Life missions easy. In Stations I suppose life is not so easy to find. So if we remove guaranteed food from supplies on Outer Planet there will be a major balance issue for manned missions vs. life missions there.
3.Features on Inner Planets no longer show universal supplies but are split between different types of them. However there are other interesting findings on surfaces which compensate the diminished output of general supplies. If we diminish supplies on that OP location by making them 1 type and give nothing in exchange, Outer Planets would be even more barren as they are now (compared to Inner Planets with features).
4.I don't think spare parts found on that location would find much use since there is no CO2 atmosphere by default on Outer Planets. The location-related repairs are still not so important. Medical supplies are also not of very much use there (compared to other moon system wheere there are no supplies at all).
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It would be more wise to have medical supplies appear if Saturn has radiation and spare parts if Saturn has rings (and food if Saturn is friendly) but this is too wordy a case.

Why not just to enable all three kinds of supplies to be found? (medical supplies, spare parts, food) This is a very straightforward solution, requiring just one sentence. Randomization is much wordier and requires some randomization means (rolling a 1-8 die?).

So, my conclusions are as follows:
- food is mandatory for that particular location
- other resources could also be included as they do not break the system at all - everything stays as it used to be without Stations (repairs possible with Supplies, now Spare Parts, healing possible with nothin, now with available Medical Supplies).

Instead of introducing complicated mechanisms (randomization or icon-based output) for that supplies location, just consider an expansion to Outer PLanets introducing Feautes, occupation missions and possilby Ice Giant systems and KBOs. There are many suggestions here on bgg for that OP expansion in line with Stations.
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