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Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Twilight Imperium 4 Age of Empire rss

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Thomas Robb
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Has anyone played TI4 using the Age of Empire rules in which ALL the public objectives are visible and available for Victory Point collection at the very beginning of the game?

Our group has always played TI3 with all public objectives visible at the beginning and first to 10 VP's wins. (sometimes we have had secret objectives and sometimes not)

I was just wondering if anyone had this experience?

Any comments on how it might affect the TI4?


 
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Andy Day

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4 is so much like 3 I cannot see this as a problem. In fact, I plan to do the same thing. Age of Empire forever!!!
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It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.
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Andre Metelo
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This is one of the hpuse rules I will apply to the game..

It speeds up the game so much....
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Andy Day

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IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.
 
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Dustin Shunta
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Gylthinel wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.


How do you plan to implement Age of Empire variant? RAWTI3?

Will you include an Imperium Rex card so that you get a variable number of stage II objectives?

My biggest problem with Age of Empire variant was that in the games where there were 4 or 5 stage II objectives the entire game devolved into taking political to get speaker and then following it up with Imperial II to score 6+ points all at once to win the game.
 
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Jimb0v wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.


How do you plan to implement Age of Empire variant? RAWTI3?

Will you include an Imperium Rex card so that you get a variable number of stage II objectives?

My biggest problem with Age of Empire variant was that in the games where there were 4 or 5 stage II objectives the entire game devolved into taking political to get speaker and then following it up with Imperial II to score 6+ points all at once to win the game.

Well, that's mitigated in TI4 because Imperial doesn't let you score like that But still, if a player has the means to score 6+ points all at once, more power to them
 
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Thomas Robb
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how could you score 6 points in one round?
 
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William Chew
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thomasrobb wrote:

how could you score 6 points in one round?


Imperial II which is used with age of empire allowed you to score unlimited public objectives in a turn.
 
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Thomas Robb
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what are the max points that could be scored in one round in TI4?
 
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Lance Harrop
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MonkeyKnifeFight wrote:
thomasrobb wrote:

how could you score 6 points in one round?


Imperial II which is used with age of empire allowed you to score unlimited public objectives in a turn.


I don't think I've every played with that.

Then again I do play TI3 with home brewed Stage 0 objectives that are visible at start, but which lock out up to three stage 1 objectives. That can make the game rather interesting.

 
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Steve Williams
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thomasrobb wrote:
what are the max points that could be scored in one round in TI4?


4 Point turns are plausible without involving multi-claiming via Imperial strategy card or Support for the Throne promissory note, as you could score an Action Phase Secret Objective, normal Secret Objective, and a Stage 2 Public objective.

If we want to engage Magical Christmas Land protocols and set Luck Drive to Infinite, the absolute dream scenario (without involving Support for the Throne given by careless neighbors, or Imperial Rider action card with even more careless neighbors), is 9 Points.

This is how many stars have to align:

∙ You currently have 3 or less points.
∙ You have the Imperial strategy card.
∙ You have 3 achievable secret objectives in hand, 2 of which are Action Phase, and don't rely on the same Space Battle to be scored.
∙ 2 achievable Stage II public objectives have been revealed (meaning it is at least round 6, or Round 5 if "Incentive Program" resolved Against).
∙ No one has removed the Custodian Token on Mecatol Rex yet (easily the most far fetched part of this whole hypothetical).
∙ No one else will win before you can score at Initiative 8.

Here is how this perfect cosmic storm shakes down:
Tactical Action: Take Mecatol Rex and the Custodial point (1)
Strategic Action: Activate Imperial, Score a Stage 2, Gain point for Mecatol (4)
Tactical Action: Attack someone and score a Secret Objective in Space and another on the Ground (6)
Status Phase: Score the other Stage 2 objective and your remaining Secret (9)
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Henry Allen
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I learned TI3 using AoE and loved it. Eventually I tried without it and really didn't care for that at all. I've played AoE ever since.

That said, I think I will try TI4 RAW before introducing AoE as a house rule. I hated the surprise ending (especially when triggered by the strategy card that let someone look at the next two cards and pick the game end card if they wanted) but that's gone. I also really like being able to plan multiple turns in advance for objectives you are working towards. That still may be an issue but I'm hoping having a couple public available from the start, the option to have and score multiple secrets, and Mecatol being such and important factor are enough to feel like there is plenty of relevant information for planning with just a bit of unknown to make things interesting.
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Ido Abelman
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IncrediSteve wrote:
thomasrobb wrote:
what are the max points that could be scored in one round in TI4?


4 Point turns are plausible without involving multi-claiming via Imperial strategy card or Support for the Throne promissory note, as you could score an Action Phase Secret Objective, normal Secret Objective, and a Stage 2 Public objective.

If we want to engage Magical Christmas Land protocols and set Luck Drive to Infinite, the absolute dream scenario (without involving Support for the Throne given by careless neighbors, or Imperial Rider action card with even more careless neighbors), is 9 Points.

This is how many stars have to align:

∙ You currently have 3 or less points.
∙ You have the Imperial strategy card.
∙ You have 3 achievable secret objectives in hand, 2 of which are Action Phase, and don't rely on the same Space Battle to be scored.
∙ 2 achievable Stage II public objectives have been revealed (meaning it is at least round 6, or Round 5 if "Incentive Program" resolved Against).
∙ No one has removed the Custodian Token on Mecatol Rex yet (easily the most far fetched part of this whole hypothetical).
∙ No one else will win before you can score at Initiative 8.

Here is how this perfect cosmic storm shakes down:
Tactical Action: Take Mecatol Rex and the Custodial point (1)
Strategic Action: Activate Imperial, Score a Stage 2, Gain point for Mecatol (4)
Tactical Action: Attack someone and score a Secret Objective in Space and another on the Ground (6)
Status Phase: Score the other Stage 2 objective and your remaining Secret (9)


Why do you need 3 or less points at the start?

Obviously you'd need 1 or less at the regular game or the game ends before you do all your scoring. The long game is easier in that regard but then you can do it with up to 5. Where does the 3 comes from?
 
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Dustin Shunta
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.


How do you plan to implement Age of Empire variant? RAWTI3?

Will you include an Imperium Rex card so that you get a variable number of stage II objectives?

My biggest problem with Age of Empire variant was that in the games where there were 4 or 5 stage II objectives the entire game devolved into taking political to get speaker and then following it up with Imperial II to score 6+ points all at once to win the game.

Well, that's mitigated in TI4 because Imperial doesn't let you score like that But still, if a player has the means to score 6+ points all at once, more power to them


That's my point what does it mean to house rule aoe. Are people going to leave the strategy cards alone or change those too. Even though I really love beyracracy+imperium Rex, I'd be too afraid I'm screwing up the balance of the game to just make changes like that.
 
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As this is in the TI4 forum, Age of Empire is a house rule since TI4 has no official variants. There is no Bureaucracy card in TI4, the #8 is a new version of Imperial, and it would work just fine with all the Objectives revealed since the card no longer manipulates the objectives; the game rules do it by themselves now. You would only need to change the new "Imperium Rex" rule to specify a certain round to end the game on rather than when no more objectives can be revealed. Or perhaps change it be all the stage 1s start revealed, and the speakrr still reveals a stage 2 each round.

As for 3 points in the example, it is the most you could have without ending the game upon scoring your 2 action phase secret objectives. The goal of the example isn't to win, it's to get the most points physically possible in one turn. Suggesting a 14 point game is simply absurd
 
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Dustin Shunta
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IncrediSteve wrote:
As this is in the TI4 forum, Age of Empire is a house rule since TI4 has no official variants. There is no Bureaucracy card in TI4, the #8 is a new version of Imperial, and it would work just fine with all the Objectives revealed since the card no longer manipulates the objectives; the game rules do it by themselves now. You would only need to change the new "Imperium Rex" rule to specify a certain round to end the game on rather than when no more objectives can be revealed. Or perhaps change it be all the stage 1s start revealed, and the speakrr still reveals a stage 2 each round.


That's my point, when folks are talking about loving the TI3 "Age of Empire" official variant and then want to bring it to TI4, what precisely does that mean?

Sure, you could literally just start with the objectives face up, but I don't necessarily think that will capture what people love about TI3 Age of Empires because of the other differences in TI4.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Jimb0v wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.


How do you plan to implement Age of Empire variant? RAWTI3?

Will you include an Imperium Rex card so that you get a variable number of stage II objectives?

My biggest problem with Age of Empire variant was that in the games where there were 4 or 5 stage II objectives the entire game devolved into taking political to get speaker and then following it up with Imperial II to score 6+ points all at once to win the game.

Well, that's mitigated in TI4 because Imperial doesn't let you score like that But still, if a player has the means to score 6+ points all at once, more power to them


That's my point what does it mean to house rule aoe. Are people going to leave the strategy cards alone or change those too. Even though I really love beyracracy+imperium Rex, I'd be too afraid I'm screwing up the balance of the game to just make changes like that.

I'm not sure why you'd need to make any change to the Strategy Cards. All AoE needs to do is just reveal objectives at the start. None of the TI4 cards affect the public objectives.

The gameplay would be exactly the same, just with more visible objectives, and no Imperium Rex to shorten things. I can't see how balance would be impacted at all.

The thing I would say most people love about AoE is the revealed objectives themselves. Thus, porting it over would be exactly the same experience on that front.
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Andy Day

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Jimb0v wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
As this is in the TI4 forum, Age of Empire is a house rule since TI4 has no official variants. There is no Bureaucracy card in TI4, the #8 is a new version of Imperial, and it would work just fine with all the Objectives revealed since the card no longer manipulates the objectives; the game rules do it by themselves now. You would only need to change the new "Imperium Rex" rule to specify a certain round to end the game on rather than when no more objectives can be revealed. Or perhaps change it be all the stage 1s start revealed, and the speakrr still reveals a stage 2 each round.


That's my point, when folks are talking about loving the TI3 "Age of Empire" official variant and then want to bring it to TI4, what precisely does that mean?

Sure, you could literally just start with the objectives face up, but I don't necessarily think that will capture what people love about TI3 Age of Empires because of the other differences in TI4.

Age of Empire simply starts with all objectives face up. And a rule that you cannot claim state 2 objectives until round 4. That is the only change needed to use it for TI4.

I don't see any other rules for TI4 being relevant. I suppose that you'd have to make a rule to count the # of rounds. But I don't find that necessary, my games would never take 10 rounds to complete.

Imperial would become less appealing since you wouldn't be so reliant on secret objectives. But I dislike SOs anyway. So this doesn't much bother me. But I rather dislike the appearance of the 4E imperial anyway. It'll likely get revised.

If you cannot tell, I'm an avid house-ruler.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
It'll work just fine; the only reason I suspect it's not listed in TI4 core rules as a variant is because TI4 intentionally has no variants at all, likely leaving it for an expansion. I recommend playing vanilla a few times to see how you like it, this edition is very well thought out.

That is such good advice. But I just cannot fathom taking it. I love Age of Empire and I don't think a few minor tweaks to the game will change that.


How do you plan to implement Age of Empire variant? RAWTI3?

Will you include an Imperium Rex card so that you get a variable number of stage II objectives?

My biggest problem with Age of Empire variant was that in the games where there were 4 or 5 stage II objectives the entire game devolved into taking political to get speaker and then following it up with Imperial II to score 6+ points all at once to win the game.

Well, that's mitigated in TI4 because Imperial doesn't let you score like that But still, if a player has the means to score 6+ points all at once, more power to them


That's my point what does it mean to house rule aoe. Are people going to leave the strategy cards alone or change those too. Even though I really love beyracracy+imperium Rex, I'd be too afraid I'm screwing up the balance of the game to just make changes like that.

I'm not sure why you'd need to make any change to the Strategy Cards. All AoE needs to do is just reveal objectives at the start. None of the TI4 cards affect the public objectives.

The gameplay would be exactly the same, just with more visible objectives, and no Imperium Rex to shorten things. I can't see how balance would be impacted at all.

The thing I would say most people love about AoE is the revealed objectives themselves. Thus, porting it over would be exactly the same experience on that front.


Sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse. I get that you can just make the objectives face up and the gameplay will be fine. What I'm trying to say is that doing so has implications for strategy and flow of the game.

To me, the best part of ti4 is that the designers looked at everything with a fresh pair of eyes and updated the design based on their experience and expertise as game designers.

The thought of someone in my group trying to get us to house rule stuff away from the intent of the designer, at least at this early stage before there is consensus about a design flaw, strikes me as arrogant.
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Jimb0v wrote:
Sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse. I get that you can just make the objectives face up and the gameplay will be fine. What I'm trying to say is that doing so has implications for strategy and flow of the game.

To me, the best part of ti4 is that the designers looked at everything with a fresh pair of eyes and updated the design based on their experience and expertise as game designers.

The lack of variants like Age of Empire was probably more due to there being NO variants in the game - something I've noticed with more and more FFG games lately (optional rules tend to only come in expansions nowadays). I don't think the changes to TI4 are so drastic that using Age of Empire would destroy the game - in fact, I strongly feel that it wouldn't have any more effect on the game than it did in TI3.

Quote:
The thought of someone in my group trying to get us to house rule stuff away from the intent of the designer, at least at this early stage before there is consensus about a design flaw, strikes me as arrogant.

I don't see it as arrogant as much as tailoring the game to fit a groups playstyle. With a game like this, everyone is going to have different feelings for what they like and don't like. The designer is going to have personal tastes as well, and that's fine.

I don't think that AoE's exclusion had anything to do with balance or major changes in strategy (beyond the changes that it did in TI3), but rather just to keep a simple baseline of "here are the rules". I wouldn't be surprised at all if a future expansion re-introduced the rule.
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Jimb0v wrote:


To me, the best part of ti4 is that the designers looked at everything with a fresh pair of eyes and updated the design based on their experience and expertise as game designers.

...And then produced a rule that is nearly identical to the disparaged original TI3 rule (I say because most folks use the Shattered Empire cards). They made a lot of great looking improvements in 4 but this seems more like a step backwards.

As Sigma very diplomatically put it, different strokes for different folks. I prefer my games to be about playing to win, not playing to figure out how to win. That seems to accomplish nothing but stalemate and longer play times.

For perspective, I am not even much of a fan of any game mechanics (in TI or elsewhere) that require you to stop playing the fun part of the game in order to score points. Bureaucracy was a strategic card useful for winning the game, but it wasn't FUN. People took it to fiddle with mechanics, not Pax Bellum their neighbors, which is why they came to the game table to begin with. If I wanted dry VP churning I'd play some Euro game.

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Gylthinel wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:


To me, the best part of ti4 is that the designers looked at everything with a fresh pair of eyes and updated the design based on their experience and expertise as game designers.

...And then produced a rule that is nearly identical to the disparaged original TI3 rule (I say because most folks use the Shattered Empire cards). They made a lot of great looking improvements in 4 but this seems more like a step backwards.





What rule is nearly identical to a disparaged original TI3 rule?
 
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Andy Day

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MonkeyKnifeFight wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
Jimb0v wrote:


To me, the best part of ti4 is that the designers looked at everything with a fresh pair of eyes and updated the design based on their experience and expertise as game designers.

...And then produced a rule that is nearly identical to the disparaged original TI3 rule (I say because most folks use the Shattered Empire cards). They made a lot of great looking improvements in 4 but this seems more like a step backwards.





What rule is nearly identical to a disparaged original TI3 rule?

Blind revealing objectives.

Though it looks like gaining VP for holding MR was actually on Imperial 2, from the SE expansion.
 
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Personally, I'm holding off on implementing any house rules or variants until I have at least a dozen games of RAW TI4 under my belt.

That said, I don't see that AOE will change TI4 any more significantly than it would change TI3. Just flip the objective cards face-up and use some sort of unique marker (starting on the second objective!) to track the current round.

The only difference is that now every game ends after the ninth round if no one's hit the VP goal, where in TI3 it was variable. Personally, I'd leave that as-is, but if you really wanted to emulate that, one take might be to roll d10 minus 1, divide the result by 3, round down, and remove that many Stage II objectives.
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