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Subject: Trump and Consequences rss

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Andre
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http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/06/phihippe-r...

A very interesting article, by the gent that played Trump, in Hillary's prep for the debates. He is obviously a Clinton supporter, but nonetheless, I give him high marks on the analysis of Trump. I tend to agree with his analysis that Trump has never really had to face the consequences of his actions, and has never really suffered when he seemed to make the wrong ones. Suffering thru a negative consequence, especially if it is the result of negative actions, is one way humans learn. And without negative consequences, there is no need nor motivation to stop the negative behaviour that might generate those negative consequences.

I think this describes Trump to a tee. His money and position have allowed him to skate thru life unscathed by any of his negative actions. I suspect he'd be a far different (and far better) man today, if he suffered a bit thru life, after he did something negative.
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Michael Pustilnik
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I think your link is incorrect.
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Andre
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MikePustilnik wrote:
I think your link is incorrect.


Corrected, thanks.
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Daniel Kearns
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abadolato01 wrote:
Suffering thru a negative consequence, especially if it is the result of negative actions, is one way humans learn. And without negative consequences, there is no need nor motivation to stop the negative behaviour that might generate those negative consequences.


Indeed, one becomes "never wrong" and thus there is no need to learn at all.

Which is exactly what we find in Trump.

I feel I must note that modern education is driven by the pathological need to avoid any negative consequences on students. I'll let you extrapolate about what effects that might have on learning.
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Andre
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dkearns wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
Suffering thru a negative consequence, especially if it is the result of negative actions, is one way humans learn. And without negative consequences, there is no need nor motivation to stop the negative behaviour that might generate those negative consequences.


Indeed, one becomes "never wrong" and thus there is no need to learn at all.

Which is exactly what we find in Trump.

I feel I must note that modern education is driven by the pathological need to avoid any negative consequences on students. I'll let you extrapolate about what effects that might have on learning.


Laughs, that is true, I happen to agree with you there, and think parents are partly at fault there, but that is the topic for a different thread, one which I could contribute to handsomely.
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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dkearns wrote:


Indeed, one becomes "never wrong" and thus there is no need to learn at all.

Which is exactly what we find in Trump.

I feel I must note that modern education is driven by the pathological need to avoid any negative consequences on students. I'll let you extrapolate about what effects that might have on learning.


As a high school teacher, I sympathize with your last paragraph, but I would not make it quite that strong. I do think that most schools are too weak when it comes to assigning consequences to students for their poor choices. I think suspension as a consequence is not very effective because many suspended students welcome the break from school.

Back to Trump, the father seems most responsible for Donald Trump's character flaws. By shielding his son from consequences, he spoiled him rotten.
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Edgar the Woebringer
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Combine Trump's "never wrong" with the Rovian philosophy of "not only don't apologize when caught lying, double down on it" that pervades the GOP, and you have some real synergy.
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Daniel Kearns
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MikePustilnik wrote:
dkearns wrote:


Indeed, one becomes "never wrong" and thus there is no need to learn at all.

Which is exactly what we find in Trump.

I feel I must note that modern education is driven by the pathological need to avoid any negative consequences on students. I'll let you extrapolate about what effects that might have on learning.


As a high school teacher, I sympathize with your last paragraph, but I would not make it quite that strong. I do think that most schools are too weak when it comes to assigning consequences to students for their poor choices. I think suspension as a consequence is not very effective because many suspended students welcome the break from school.


Sorry, I meant educational consequences. No Child Left Behind put all pressure of student performance not on the student but on the teachers and the schools. If your students don't do well, then the teacher is bad or the school is bad and the teacher and the school are penalized accordingly.

Easy fix, don't let students not do well.

At the University level, all responsibility for student learning is place on the teacher. 100%. You'll hear a phrase called "active learning". Active learning invokes activities presented by the teacher to force students to engage in the material, i.e. "active teaching". Active learning is redundant as all learning is active, and anyone inherently interested in a subject will be active in the material (e.g. they actually think about it). But university professors are pressured to be "active teachers" because so many people who don't care are force to enroll to get a degree of any kind (to validate them as future workers), and forced to take classes they wouldn't ordinarily be interested in. You'll also hear primary emphasis on "retention" which only means "keep them on the hook and paying tuition as long as you can". Thus "active learning" is an instrument of "retention".
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Walt
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dkearns wrote:
At the University level, all responsibility for student learning is place on the teacher. ...

I tend to disagree generally: students are adults at that point, and responsible for their own actions.

California Community Colleges (CCC) teach, almost like an extension of high school, but it's up to the student to choose and pass courses (advisors are available, but not required; you can just sign up for whatever).

California State Colleges and Universities (Cal-State) teach, too, but require more out of the student (and grant four year degrees).

University of California, with rare exceptions like medical schools, has a top priority of research, not teaching. Professors take time away from research to teach and be advisors, but much of the weight is on grad students. Students need to actively learn and not expect to have knowledge spoon fed to them. If you go to UC to be taught, you've chosen the wrong institution: you should have gone to CCC or Cal-State. One reason is, professors chosen for research skill are often lousy teachers. But if the student is a good learner, it doesn't matter.
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Daniel Kearns
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Tall_Walt wrote:
dkearns wrote:
At the University level, all responsibility for student learning is place on the teacher. ...

I tend to disagree generally: students are adults at that point, and responsible for their own actions.

California Community Colleges (CCC) teach, almost like an extension of high school, but it's up to the student to choose and pass courses (advisors are available, but not required; you can just sign up for whatever).

California State Colleges and Universities (Cal-State) teach, too, but require more out of the student (and grant four year degrees).

University of California, with rare exceptions like medical schools, has a top priority of research, not teaching. Professors take time away from research to teach and be advisors, but much of the weight is on grad students. Students need to actively learn and not expect to have knowledge spoon fed to them. If you go to UC to be taught, you've chosen the wrong institution: you should have gone to CCC or Cal-State. One reason is, professors chosen for research skill are often lousy teachers. But if the student is a good learner, it doesn't matter.


Walt, I've discussed with you before on the state of university education.

What experience do you have in University level teaching and beauracracy?
 
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