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Nations at War: Desert Heat» Forums » General

Subject: why should I get 2nd edition? rss

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Marc Hanna
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I have the first edition.

what would be the reason to invest in the second edition?

thanks!
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello
That is a good question. We rewrote the 2nd edition rulebook so that it can be used with 1st edition. So technically you do not need to do anything more than download the rulebook for free to start playing 2nd edition with WSR or DH. The only thing you will miss out on are some counters that support the new and optional rules. These can be substituted though.

But within the new edition you get the following:
New scenarios in addition to the older ones.
Beautiful rounded cornered counters
New units
Design your own scenario charts and rules
administrative counters to support the new rules
Scenario books with expanded rules and national abilities
newly redesigned maps with snow versions of the maps

These are few of the changes. check out this unboxing video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwsZ4zubUdc
Thank you
Sean Druelinger
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Marc Hanna
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Great reply thanks! I'll def. check it out.
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Sean Druelinger
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I wanted to add that in Desert Heat more Germans were added along with a new Italian unit. We added the 7th Dessert Rats (UK) and a new Rommel unit that is tactical. Most importantly we added Matilda Tank units.
The vid link I sent was for WSR.

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
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Dundy O
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Just ordered it. WooHoo!
 
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Sean Druelinger
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Thank you for your support!!
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
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Dundy O
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I just love the Nations at War system. It was built for fun and immersion.
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Marc Hanna
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Wister wrote:
I just love the Nations at War system. It was built for fun and immersion.


Yes, it's good to see this series renewal after a couple years hiatus! I've ordered White Star Rising 2nd edition on it's way to England now via distributor. I'll work with what I have for Desert Heat (first edition) -- at least for now.

I'm hoping to see the World at War series arrive soon too... hmm looks like 'Storming the Gap' is the new name for 'Eisenbach Gap?' I have the latter.
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Dundy O
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Honosbinda wrote:


I'm hoping to see the World at War series arrive soon too... hmm looks like 'Storming the Gap' is the new name for 'Eisenbach Gap?' I have the latter.


I didn't buy any of the titles during the 1st edition run, but I'll buy them in this 2nd edition run. I was struck by the story Lock 'n Load created around WaW. I want to experience that with the NaW, WaW system.

I have the 2nd edition White Star Rising and it's so beautiful. The counters, maps, and instruction booklets are all excellent. My only complaint is the box size. There is no way I can get everything back into the box with punched counters unless I baggy everything. And, bagging everything would just be a pain during set-up and break-down.

Overall, good job, Lock 'n Load. thumbsup
 
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Marc Hanna
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Yeah forget the boxes. I use these for most everything anyway. I think they are stocked at Walmart in USA

Darice Plastic Deluxe Organizer 13.75-inch x 8.5-inch-32 Compartments. Each compartment will hold a formation plus room for ancillary counters and markers.
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Dundy O
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Thank you, Marc. I have a few organizers, but less compartments. I like the one you mentioned. I found a good price online at a local Joann Fabrics. I'm going to run out to it in the next day or two and buy about 4 of them.

I like that you can fit all the counters into one bin. Perfect.
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello

I can get two counter trays into the box and accommodates all my counters. I however had to double up some wells

Thank you
Sean
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Keith Talbot
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I have Stalin's Triumph - enjoying it ! (I'n the midst of setting up the second scenario )



I'm now think I will replace my other 2 Nations at war with the newer versions.

Keith T
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Dundy O
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sdruelinger wrote:
Hello

I can get two counter trays into the box and accommodates all my counters. I however had to double up some wells

Thank you
Sean


I own DVG counter trays as well as GMT counter trays. The DVG trays are deeper, so they don't even come close to stacking low enough to close the box cover decently. As for the GMT counter trays, I don't want to double stack them. Trays are great for war-games because they organize the counters.

If I double stack the wells inside the tray, that kind-of defeats the purpose. WSR and the other titles in the NaW series have many formations. It's great to know each formation has it's own well. That makes setup and breakdown a breeze. I also do the same thing with the administrative counters.

Also, I bought the NaW Compendium (which is worth it in my opinion for the extra formations and scenarios) and need to store those, too.

Lock 'n Load has such beautiful production values. I just don't understand why they would cut a corner price wise on the box, if that's the reasoning behind the decision to make shallow boxes. On the other hand, if that's the reasoning and money had to be saved, thank you for only cutting corners on the box.
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Nigel Heather
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I came to ask just this question.

I have the first edition Desert Heat, and I'm wondering what is the value of buying the Second Edition.

I can see the thick rounders chits - of course they are nice but I have rounded my counters and whilst not as thick they do the job.

Maps - I can see they are prettier, BUT, they are now on paper whereas mine are on thick board. And although the Edition 1 boards have simipler graphics in a way it makes it easier to tell what the terrain is, to see the edges of higher ground for example.

Scenario generator - okay granted that is extra, whether I would ever use it is another question but nice to have.

Extra units and counters - not really sure what these are nor how many. I see that they have corrected the missing Matildas which is nice.

Rules - well they are downloadable and mostly work with the first edition.

Extra scenarios - always welcome but not played the all of the ones in First Edition yet.


But my biggest gripe about LnL is the accessibility outside the US. A few years back LnL was one of my preferred games companies and I was working my way through the WaW, the NaW and the Heroes series. And then all of a sudden they disappeared from retaillers. Practically the only place to get the games was direct from LnL Publishing which just isn't practical if you live in the UK - works out to be silly expensive. There is just one UK retailer that I am aware off carrying LnL games and they are very expensive.

Then LnL started updating all their old games. This could have have meant me buying a lot (I think there are at least 10 games that I would consider) but in doing the update they seemed to double in price. In the UK I have to add import taxes and courier fees which pushes the prices upto 3x what I was paying before.

So sad to say that while I have a long wish list I will probably have to pass on them all. Unless someone can convince me otherwise

is upgrading from Desert Heat edition 1 to edition 2 worth $90 ?

Cheers,

Nigel
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Sean Druelinger
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Hello Nigel

The games are or will be available soon in the UK through 2nd chance games.
Save you some shipping costs . I believe a big shipment left for them a few days ago. I am not involved in shipping dept. but I believe my assessment is accurate.

As for the question on whether to buy it or not I will point you to this unboxing video. It does a great job at explaining some of the new features of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHP19v6PxJo&t=2s

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
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Nigel Heather
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sdruelinger wrote:
Hello Nigel

The games are or will be available soon in the UK through 2nd chance games.
Save you some shipping costs . I believe a big shipment left for them a few days ago. I am not involved in shipping dept. but I believe my assessment is accurate.

As for the question on whether to buy it or not I will point you to this unboxing video. It does a great job at explaining some of the new features of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHP19v6PxJo&t=2s

Thank you
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing


Yes I am aware of Second Chance Games. If you note in my post I say that I am aware of one retailer.

But that only serves to illustrate my point - why is the distribution so limited? Is it by your design that there is just one UK retailer or is it that all the other retailers don't want to stock your games?

The result seems to be that the prices of LnL games are tightly controlled and high compared with competition like GMT, Worthington and Academy Games.

I would really like Heroes of North Africa but it is $130 at Second Chance Games which I really can't justify.

Cheers,

Nigel
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Marc Hanna
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nheather wrote:

Yes I am aware of Second Chance Games. If you note in my post I say that I am aware of one retailer.

But that only serves to illustrate my point - why is the distribution so limited? Is it by your design that there is just one UK retailer or is it that all the other retailers don't want to stock your games?

The result seems to be that the prices of LnL games are tightly controlled and high compared with competition like GMT, Worthington and Academy Games.

I would really like Heroes of North Africa but it is $130 at Second Chance Games which I really can't justify.

Cheers,

Nigel


I live in England. If you're going to complain, don't forget to complain about the outrageous VAT and tariff imposed upon us here.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Second Chance games, but if you have a problem with their pricing, try to order directly from the publisher or a US distributor. Then pay the overseas shipping, the tariff, and the VAT yourself. See how you come out.

By the way, there are no pricing controls if you can do that.

I save money using Second Chance games and I buy, for example, all new ASL modules through them. Why? Because it's cheaper than going direct. Obviously you have issues with this distributor, and that's unfortunate.

But let's at least admit that Sean has done an excellent job addressing your reasonable concerns and on the whole I don't think much needs to be made of your unreasonable ones. You want to improve UK distribution? Start your own gaming store and compete I'll be happy to give you a try and see if you can hold a candle to Second Chance Games.



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Sean Druelinger
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Hello

Thank you all for your responses. I am probably not the best person to discuss the details of international distribution so I will let Dave Heath know about this conversation and get him to respond further. I do believe we do have one or two other distributors in the UK. I do not know them offhand.
Anyway the original post was on Desert Heat and why buy it. I hope I was able to answer that question for you and hopefully the unboxing video gives you further insight.
Thank you in advance
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing
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Dundy O
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Let's get some tournaments going. That'll spike interest in this series.

Then we'll be demanding the Pacific Theatre. Get on it, Sean...
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Nigel Heather
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Honosbinda wrote:
nheather wrote:

Yes I am aware of Second Chance Games. If you note in my post I say that I am aware of one retailer.

But that only serves to illustrate my point - why is the distribution so limited? Is it by your design that there is just one UK retailer or is it that all the other retailers don't want to stock your games?

The result seems to be that the prices of LnL games are tightly controlled and high compared with competition like GMT, Worthington and Academy Games.

I would really like Heroes of North Africa but it is $130 at Second Chance Games which I really can't justify.

Cheers,

Nigel


I live in England. If you're going to complain, don't forget to complain about the outrageous VAT and tariff imposed upon us here.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Second Chance games, but if you have a problem with their pricing, try to order directly from the publisher or a US distributor. Then pay the overseas shipping, the tariff, and the VAT yourself. See how you come out.

By the way, there are no pricing controls if you can do that.

I save money using Second Chance games and I buy, for example, all new ASL modules through them. Why? Because it's cheaper than going direct. Obviously you have issues with this distributor, and that's unfortunate.

But let's at least admit that Sean has done an excellent job addressing your reasonable concerns and on the whole I don't think much needs to be made of your unreasonable ones. You want to improve UK distribution? Start your own gaming store and compete I'll be happy to give you a try and see if you can hold a candle to Second Chance Games.





Not sure you properly read what I posted.

VAT - agree
Tariff - no tariff applied to the consumer - what are you talking about - sure there may be trade tariffs (every country has them) but they are not apparent to the consumer and I'll warrant that you don't have a clue what they are.

The one you haven't mentioned is the highway robbery charge made by the courier companies when importing, in the form of a 'Admin Fee'.

It is this and the high shipping prices that make buying direct from the US cost prohibitive in most cases. The shame is that this rules out the extras that you get with pre-orders and kickstarters.

For example you see a game for pre-order, $60, extra free stuff and free shipping to the US. Looks great but first check out the shipping to the UK - it's $35. So the package now valued at $95 arrives at customs and they add 20% VAT - its now $114. Finally to rub salt into the wounds the courier company adds an admin fee, typically £15 or $20. So when it lands that $60 games costs $134.

Second Chance Games - I never said I had a problem with them, I am a customer of theirs - go back and read what I said.

The point I am making is that their is something screwy with the distribution of LnL games. In the past I bought plenty, they were readily available in UK etailers and bricks and mortar stores. Same in the US - I used to travel to the US a lot on business and would pick LnL games up from CSI. And then something changed - LnL games disappeared from the retailers.

I don't need to open a store, there are plenty of UK board Game retailers - the way you talk Second Chance Games is the only one in the UK. They all used to stock LnL games - but they don't now - none of them - Second Chance Games is the only place. Likewise in the US, checkout all the LnL games in CSI. There used to be loads, now there are none.

So what happened? Did retailers around the world get together and come to a mutual agreement that they stop selling LnL games. I doubt it very much. If I were to guess I would say that LnL decided that it didn't like price competition (and who can blame them) so it is LnL that is not letting retailers stock their products. This is my guess so I accept it can be wrong but if I am I would love to know why so many retailers sudden stopped stocking LnL products.

And again I have no problem with Second Chance Games - I was just pointing out that as they are the only retailer in the country (for whatever reason) they can fix the price at RRP (which I suspect is LnL's game plan).

As for the pricing LnL games are feeling expensive compared with the competitors - and I'm not just saying that from a UK perspective - Heroes of North Africa is $100 in the US.

All I was asking is that as I already have Desert Heat v1 (which probably cost about $45) what benefits would I see buying Desert Heat v2 for $90.

Cheers,

Nigel



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Nigel Heather
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sdruelinger wrote:
Hello

Thank you all for your responses. I am probably not the best person to discuss the details of international distribution so I will let Dave Heath know about this conversation and get him to respond further. I do believe we do have one or two other distributors in the UK. I do not know them offhand.
Anyway the original post was on Desert Heat and why buy it. I hope I was able to answer that question for you and hopefully the unboxing video gives you further insight.
Thank you in advance
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing


Thanks Sean,

Yes I did read that before posting. I was being more specific because it seems that I will have to pay around $90 for the game in the UK.

So I was interested in finding more detail before splashing that sort of cash when I already have V1.

More scenarios - how many
Rounded chits - agreed they look nice - but functionally are they any different to my clipped v1 counters
New units - interesting what are they, how many, only seen mention of Matildas
Design your own scenario - yes that looks nice
Administrative counters - what are they and how many
Expanded scenario books with expanded rules and national abilities - does this mean that the online living rule book is not sufficient to play the v2 rules using v1 game
Newly redesigned maps - yes they look prettier, but they seem to be on paper where the V1 were on mounted on thick card stock - so in that respect the V2 maps are inferior

Cheers,

Nigel
 
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Marc Hanna
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nheather wrote:

Second Chance Games - I never said I had a problem with them, I am a customer of theirs - go back and read what I said.


Your overall tone was that they are controlling prices and are too expensive. But you are right about the tariff, the ten percent is on top of what I would pay when importing a vehicle here for resale. I think I have been charged an admin fee when shipping games directly from the USA to me, yes, that is correct.

nheather wrote:

The point I am making is that their is something screwy with the distribution of LnL games. In the past I bought plenty, they were readily available in UK etailers and bricks and mortar stores. Same in the US - I used to travel to the US a lot on business and would pick LnL games up from CSI. And then something changed - LnL games disappeared from the retailers.


Thanks for clarifying. I'll tell you why LnL disappeared for a while, it's because their product support and product fell apart for years, I reckon. Truth be told, I had sadly written off these series because it looked like LnL was moving into digital and would get out of print. Happily, they have turned it around. LnL must have been very popular to have hit brick and mortar stores en mass as you describe. I'm sure it's true, I wasn't living in England at the time. But generally, wargames don't hit the streets so much, at least here in Southern England, where tabletop and Magic the Gathering rule the roost.

nheather wrote:

I don't need to open a store, there are plenty of UK board Game retailers - the way you talk Second Chance Games is the only one in the UK.


No, you were. I'll wager that any of those other stores could stock LnL, but don't choose to, or didn't place pre-orders years ago. Second Chance games was and is willing to stick their necks out, the other stores aren't.

nheather wrote:

They all used to stock LnL games - but they don't now - none of them - Second Chance Games is the only place. Likewise in the US, checkout all the LnL games in CSI. There used to be loads, now there are none.

So what happened? Did retailers around the world get together and come to a mutual agreement that they stop selling LnL games. I doubt it very much. If I were to guess I would say that LnL decided that it didn't like price competition (and who can blame them) so it is LnL that is not letting retailers stock their products. This is my guess so I accept it can be wrong but if I am I would love to know why so many retailers sudden stopped stocking LnL products.

And again I have no problem with Second Chance Games - I was just pointing out that as they are the only retailer in the country (for whatever reason) they can fix the price at RRP (which I suspect is LnL's game plan).


Okay, but I still think you are accusing 2nd Chance of price gouging although you are toning it down. I disagree with you here. I doubt very much that LnL is doing any sort of price fixing, but as far as I'm concerned, if 2nd Chance games is going to hold the inventory and tie up their money (this isn't a consignment deal), they deserve to price it how they think the market will bear. Obviously, the price is too much for you to bear, so be it.

But see above for why others are not stocking these products. LnL had huge problems for years that it looks like they have overcome (or at least beginning to and I hope it stays that way).


nheather wrote:

As for the pricing LnL games are feeling expensive compared with the competitors - and I'm not just saying that from a UK perspective - Heroes of North Africa is $100 in the US.

All I was asking is that as I already have Desert Heat v1 (which probably cost about $45) what benefits would I see buying Desert Heat v2 for $90.


Look, if the price is too high, they will find that out. Frankly I don't think so, because they have had to satisfy tons of pre-orders and consequently the production values are higher than standard GMT. Did you check out the video? Thick rounded counters? Anyway, if the price is too high for you, don't buy it. If there are enough of you out there with the same perspective, they will have to do something about the pricing.

cheers!
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David Heath
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Hi Nigel,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Sean pointed this thread out to me but I been delayed in getting back here to post something.

I disagree with your game comparison of our games with other publishers games. Each gamer has his own tastes and what he or she feels is important other will not. I have personally looked at other publishers games and compared them from components to price and I feel we fall pretty well within the other publisher's games.


The company that I purchased had more than a few product issues, which the current LnLP staff felt we needed to correct and improve the presentation of our games. This is NOT to say we made everything perfect but we will work on making things even better as they are pointed out and we move forward. I do feel we more than achieve our goal with the new games being released.

Here is just one unboxing video that shows some of the differences.


Desert Heat - Second Edition- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHP19v6PxJo


So to answer your question, I am sure the time needed to complete the reprints and new titles have caused the lack of on-shelf games everywhere. Again this is nothing screwy on our end or the dealers.


Second Chance Games is a major dealer for us but not the only one. They will be handling all of our EU pre-orders but get the same discounts as any other dealers. This arrangement really helps our customers on shipping and VAT. They are used by GMT as well for their pre-orders.


You have stated the price for Heroes of North Africa is priced at 99.95 pounds and 7.00 pounds in shipping. I can only assume that based on the levels of the pre-orders the price is fair with most of our customers.


Here is Second Chance Games - Heroes of North Africa Listing
https://www.secondchancegames.com:7081/index.php/ww2/heroes-of-north-africa-detail


I have talked to many of our customers and other publishers using SCG and I have only heard praise about their operations and feel they will do a good job by us.


Second Chance Games will be one of the earliest dealers to receive our games overseas. This is simply because they are handling our pre-orders and has saved our customers money on shipping and on VAT charges.


We did not make this choice lightly, We have talked to our overseas customers, publishing friends and the owners of SGC before making this decision. We feel they are the best fit for us and our customers going forward at this time.


You also stated the high cost of shipping makes it hard for overseas customers to purchase our games, on this we can agree on. We took a long time working out a deal with a private carrier to get the games from us to our overseas customers, including our Canadian customers. The rate savings can be anywhere from 30%-60% cheaper than normal USPS rates.


The way dealers buy games is based on the demand by the public and stores. So please go ask your game shops and they will ask who they buy from etc. To suggest we are price fixing is an untrue and unfair comment. The dealers themselves would be complaining if we would not sell to them.


We have only started shipping to dealers recently because we ship first to our pre-order customers. After we complete all the pre-order shipments, we start packing our dealer orders.


I am doing this off of memory but here are some EU dealers that have or are ordering our games.


Second Chance Games
Brave New World
Hexasim
UGG
Agurjuex Boutique


So I hope I have cleared the air on the dealers, what we are and are not doing going forward. If anyone else has any other questions or suggestions please let me know. If you have any issues with an order please open a support ticket (http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/support-tickets/open?open=1) and you will need to have an account on our forums to do so. This account is in addition to our store.


David



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Sean Druelinger
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Hi Nigel

I think the unboxing video may answer many of your questions as it shows off all the components and delves into the scenario book and the rules there in.

What it doesnt show are some of the new units. There are 2 new British units one being the 7th Desert Rats, 1 new Italian unit and 2 new German units and a Rommel unit (tactical)

New scenarios I think include 3 or 4 new ones that support the new units. I will add that future scenarios will include these newer units.

The question is do you need 2nd edition Desert Heat to play 2nd Edition rules. The short answer is no. The only change may be the substitution of some admin counters that support the new rules. It is compatible with your existing game.

With that said all future work on any desert scenarios or expansions will be based on 2nd edition Desert Heat as a base.

I completely understand a gamer's hesitation to purchase 2nd edition and I will make every attempt to answer any questions or take feedback on this series. I hope I have helped you with your questions.

Thank you in advance
Sean Druelinger
LnL Publishing



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