Billy Babel
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One of the first steps is "players must agree whether to use the starting unit list from the base game or rise of the empire"

If both players are playing to win, I can understand why the empire would pick it. The death star has been buffed quite a bit, and it's delayed, but in exchange they start the game out with an extra probe card, and the ability to build on a remote planet of their choice like it was populous. On top of that he gains 2 tie strikers without losing anything and he loses one at-st for 2 tanks.

The rebels on the other hand lose an x-wing and a y-wing for one u-wing. That seems like a terrible trade off. the u wing won't outperform those combined and has half as much health.

This seems like a terrible deal for the rebels. They lose 2 triangle units for 1 triangle unit that does a worse job than the two it replaces. Why would the rebels ever agree to this if they are trying their best to win.
 
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While I agree it seems so, I think this should be one of the things that needs to be randomized;

What deck each player is getting and what setup
 
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Sebastiaan Ringoot
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I must agree with you

 
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Stephane Smith
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Yep, absolutly. Especialy because DUC on Dagobah in our games can deny Mon Calamari all the game if Empire Start on Saleucami. And we don t forgrt Mon Mothma have less chance to stsrt with her card...

0 Mon Calamari cripple the rebels, and we don t forget they have a good space tactic card with this ship.

That s why we agree before picking side and do a bid after initial probe distribution....

Bid is in starting triangles units for who bid less. 3 triangle can give 1 round unit... 6, a square but never saw past 3 for a side.

Equal bid go in discussion or finally higher dice.

Me and my friend did that bid in other games since axis and allies first version. Best wsy to go.
 
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Kevin Walsh
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It kind of makes me wonder if during playtests the Rebels kept blowing up the DSUC on turn 1, so they ended up being scaled down.

It seems like a better solution would have been to mandate that some of their space forces go on the Rebel base.
 
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David Umstattd
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Amaranth wrote:
It kind of makes me wonder if during playtests the Rebels kept blowing up the DSUC on turn 1, so they ended up being scaled down.

It seems like a better solution would have been to mandate that some of their space forces go on the Rebel base.


Limiting player choice is rarely a good design decision.

It's too early to say about the DSUC setup but starting with one less carrier is a huge disadvantage for the empire. And I think rebel players have been to reliant on Utupah turn 1 production and needed to vary their setup. There are plenty of other paths to victory that doesn't involve Utupah turn 1.
 
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Billy Babel
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David Umstattd wrote:
Amaranth wrote:
It kind of makes me wonder if during playtests the Rebels kept blowing up the DSUC on turn 1, so they ended up being scaled down.

It seems like a better solution would have been to mandate that some of their space forces go on the Rebel base.


Limiting player choice is rarely a good design decision.

It's too early to say about the DSUC setup but starting with one less carrier is a huge disadvantage for the empire. And I think rebel players have been to reliant on Utupah turn 1 production and needed to vary their setup. There are plenty of other paths to victory that doesn't involve Utupah turn 1.


they don't start with one less carrier. They start with 3 just like in the base game. They get everything except one less at st, and in exchange they get 2 tanks. In fact they gain 2 tie strikers and one storm trooper without losing anything so they have a significant advantage over the base game. They get an outright upgrade over the base game with the only disadvantage being that 4 of their starting ties have to be placed on the death star planet.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/1b/be...

 
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Kevin Walsh
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BillyBabel wrote:

they don't start with one less carrier. They start with 3 just like in the base game. They get everything except one less at st, and in exchange they get 2 tanks. In fact they gain 2 tie strikers and one storm trooper without losing anything so they have a significant advantage over the base game. They get an outright upgrade over the base game with the only disadvantage being that 4 of their starting ties have to be placed on the death star planet.

They do start with 1 less carrier. In the base game setup they have 7 carriers on turn 1, versus 6 with the expansion setup.
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BillyBabel wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
Amaranth wrote:
It kind of makes me wonder if during playtests the Rebels kept blowing up the DSUC on turn 1, so they ended up being scaled down.

It seems like a better solution would have been to mandate that some of their space forces go on the Rebel base.


Limiting player choice is rarely a good design decision.

It's too early to say about the DSUC setup but starting with one less carrier is a huge disadvantage for the empire. And I think rebel players have been to reliant on Utupah turn 1 production and needed to vary their setup. There are plenty of other paths to victory that doesn't involve Utupah turn 1.


they don't start with one less carrier. They start with 3 just like in the base game. They get everything except one less at st, and in exchange they get 2 tanks. In fact they gain 2 tie strikers and one storm trooper without losing anything so they have a significant advantage over the base game. They get an outright upgrade over the base game with the only disadvantage being that 4 of their starting ties have to be placed on the death star planet.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/1b/be...



They mean a ship with the ability to carry units - The Death Star.
instead of 3 AC,3 SD and a DeathStar, you now have 1 less fleet you can move around and speard out.

Also while the DS was an immovable object in the base game (you could put him on any starting system to defend it without a leader) now in the expansion you need to protect it.

I agree that the trade-off seems bad for the rebels, but as i said it needs to be randomized, bidding for starting set-up feels weird to me, this is a friendly game, and the base-game's balance proved to be resilient to all the random draws in it.
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Dan P
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The expansion starting setup is actually still very balanced - it only looks like the Rebels got hosed until you sit down as the Empire and try to place your starting units!

The game does play differently now, for sure, but I wouldn't call it an Imperial advantage. Yes, the Rebels probably can't challenge an ISD with their opening fleet, but that was always risky at best. And yes, the Empire can grab Utapau on turn one, but adding enough forces to take and hold it will leave them very vulnerable to disruption elsewhere. In the games I've played so far the Rebels have still managed to get at least one Mon Cal in the queue, and built more overall than they used to.

The threat of losing a leader really forces the Empire to be cautious with their first turn subjugations. It can be pretty effective for the Rebels to set up a counter attack on round one, instead of attacking with their first move.
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Having played a game as Imps, I also think the new set up is likely more balanced than it first appears. While the Empire doesn't get fewer pieces of plastic (it gets a few more, as has already been pointed out above) it doesn't get to use those pieces of plastic as efficiently for the first 3 turns of the game.

Instead of starting with 3 SDs and an invincible DS, providing at least 4 points from which to launch expeditions with relative impunity, the Imps must now devote at least 1 of their SDs to defending the DS until turn 4. So instead of 4 roving bands of near invulnerability (plus the ACs) on round 1, you now have only have 2.

Also, since Rebs place units last, you have to load up the DSUC system with a fair number of TIEs; I think even more than the starting 4. Since both sides get to fire and assign their own hits, and the DSUC only has 4 black HP, it's quite susceptible to a turn 1 or even turn 2 kill. First, the XWing Adv Tact card will give 2 free hits to the DSUC. So that means the Rebs only need two more hits. So the Imps need enough black dice to roll a lightsaber or two to remove some of the damage. Hence the need for extra TIEs.

Also consider that the rebs may get to reinforce their starting fleet at the end of T1 then attack first on T2, but the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker so you can't place new units there. So you have to over compensate by placing extra starting units in that system, which are also effectively taken out of the action until T4. This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space. EDIT: Ground troops don't block DS deployment per official ruling discussed below.

Overall, I felt like though the Imps have more starting plastic, I had a lot less plastic I was actually able to move around the board until T4. And honestly by that point, I had so much that was already on the board from production, having that extra fleet was no longer a great advantage. Effectively, it slowed my early game, where Imp usually runs around without a care.

Also by the time my DS was finished, the Rebs were already digging into their tier II objectives, which meant I could no longer count on them not having DS Plans. Once again, that early DS invulnerability guarantee was eliminated.

Don't get me wrong, though. I definitely enjoyed being able to take a remote system out of the possible base locations and to pick any remote system. As the Imp, I felt like it was a really nice change to not be subject to the whims of the setup probe deck draw.

Finally, from just a overall game perspective, allowing the Imps to use any remote system of their choice really changes the starting map much more than the usual random setup. I felt like it added a freshness to the opening board and turn 1 play decisions that was missing under the base game advanced setup.
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Billy Babel
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Nathyr wrote:


Also consider that the rebs may get to reinforce their starting fleet at the end of T1 then attack first on T2, but the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker so you can't place new units there.


What do you mean the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker? You get one at setup, why wouldn't it have a shield bunker?
 
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BillyBabel wrote:
Nathyr wrote:


Also consider that the rebs may get to reinforce their starting fleet at the end of T1 then attack first on T2, but the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker so you can't place new units there.


What do you mean the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker? You get one at setup, why wouldn't it have a shield bunker?


I don't see a shield bunker listed as one of the starting units in the expansion rules. If I'm mistaken, please reference where you see it, as this would definitely sway my opinion on balance.

If you are stating that you think you get one automatically just because you have a DSUC, however, I would disagree on the basis that the Shield Bunker has its own construction symbol and rules for deployment unconnected with the existence of a DSUC.
 
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Allison Macrae
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BillyBabel wrote:

What do you mean the DSUC doesn't have a shield bunker? You get one at setup, why wouldn't it have a shield bunker?


What do you mean you get one at setup? No you don't?
 
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Billy Babel
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oh my apologies, you are correct I had misread.
 
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Nathyr wrote:
This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space.


This is actually not true.
Corey has ruled in the base game that completing the DSUC cannot be delayed this way.
Even tho the DS is technically 'deployed' it isnt, it is just completed
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Tim Meng
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Nathyr wrote:
This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space.


As I recall, this was clarified in a ruling that normal Death Star deployment could not be blocked by opposing units.
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jooice wrote:
Nathyr wrote:
This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space.


This is actually not true.
Corey has ruled in the base game that completing the DSUC cannot be delayed this way.
Even tho the DS is technically 'deployed' it isnt, it is just completed


Good to know! Man, I wish they would update the FAQ for this game. There are to many officially rulings like this just floating around on the boards.
 
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Nathyr wrote:
jooice wrote:
Nathyr wrote:
This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space.


This is actually not true.
Corey has ruled in the base game that completing the DSUC cannot be delayed this way.
Even tho the DS is technically 'deployed' it isnt, it is just completed


Good to know! Man, I wish they would update the FAQ for this game. There are to many officially rulings like this just floating around on the boards.


The best place to look is this thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1558827/official-rules-clar...

It is pretty consistently updated (thanks to Pref) to reflect all the answers from FFG.
 
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David Umstattd
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Nathyr wrote:
jooice wrote:
Nathyr wrote:
This also includes extra ground units, since losing the ground theater and having reb units on the planet would result in not being able to place the DS once its completed even if you still have control of space.


This is actually not true.
Corey has ruled in the base game that completing the DSUC cannot be delayed this way.
Even tho the DS is technically 'deployed' it isnt, it is just completed


Good to know! Man, I wish they would update the FAQ for this game. There are to many officially rulings like this just floating around on the boards.


It's pretty clear from the rules I thought...
 
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Doug Bey
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As the rebel player this weekend, I actually loved the new setup. I did a first turn alpha strike against the DSUC and wiped it out with my starting fleet. 1 x, 1 y, 1 u, and the corvette and transport quickly wiped out the 4 defending tie fighters, leading the destruction of the DSUC. The Rebel advanced tactic card that cancels the Imperial tactic card prevented the swarm tie fighter card. The rolls went my way and the Imp decided to not send a leader to defend, hence no rerolls possible for him to get a saber after he whiffed it.

I lost my x and y wing, but it was an awesome trade.

Will it work every game? Heck no. If the Imp sends a defending leader allowing rerolls, the rebels will likely get stomped. But this forces the Imps to abandon their first turn plans with tying up one of their precious few leaders.

And the U Wing is a great ship with a fantastic tactic card. Getting free rebel troop on the ground can be huge. Worth the trade off.
 
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David Umstattd
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Snotwalker wrote:
As the rebel player this weekend, I actually loved the new setup. I did a first turn alpha strike against the DSUC and wiped it out with my starting fleet. 1 x, 1 y, 1 u, and the corvette and transport quickly wiped out the 4 defending tie fighters, leading the destruction of the DSUC. The Rebel advanced tactic card that cancels the Imperial tactic card prevented the swarm tie fighter card. The rolls went my way and the Imp decided to not send a leader to defend, hence no rerolls possible for him to get a saber after he whiffed it.

I lost my x and y wing, but it was an awesome trade.

Will it work every game? Heck no. If the Imp sends a defending leader allowing rerolls, the rebels will likely get stomped. But this forces the Imps to abandon their first turn plans with tying up one of their precious few leaders.

And the U Wing is a great ship with a fantastic tactic card. Getting free rebel troop on the ground can be huge. Worth the trade off.


The empire didn't put any other units in their DSUC system other than the mandatory 4 ties? Seems unwise. Good job capitalizing on that.
 
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David Umstattd wrote:
Snotwalker wrote:
As the rebel player this weekend, I actually loved the new setup. I did a first turn alpha strike against the DSUC and wiped it out with my starting fleet. 1 x, 1 y, 1 u, and the corvette and transport quickly wiped out the 4 defending tie fighters, leading the destruction of the DSUC. The Rebel advanced tactic card that cancels the Imperial tactic card prevented the swarm tie fighter card. The rolls went my way and the Imp decided to not send a leader to defend, hence no rerolls possible for him to get a saber after he whiffed it.

I lost my x and y wing, but it was an awesome trade.

Will it work every game? Heck no. If the Imp sends a defending leader allowing rerolls, the rebels will likely get stomped. But this forces the Imps to abandon their first turn plans with tying up one of their precious few leaders.

And the U Wing is a great ship with a fantastic tactic card. Getting free rebel troop on the ground can be huge. Worth the trade off.


The empire didn't put any other units in their DSUC system other than the mandatory 4 ties? Seems unwise. Good job capitalizing on that.


It was a harsh lesson for him, and one to be remembered for sure. Will make initial deployment of the Imp fleet that much harder.
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David Umstattd
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Snotwalker wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
Snotwalker wrote:
As the rebel player this weekend, I actually loved the new setup. I did a first turn alpha strike against the DSUC and wiped it out with my starting fleet. 1 x, 1 y, 1 u, and the corvette and transport quickly wiped out the 4 defending tie fighters, leading the destruction of the DSUC. The Rebel advanced tactic card that cancels the Imperial tactic card prevented the swarm tie fighter card. The rolls went my way and the Imp decided to not send a leader to defend, hence no rerolls possible for him to get a saber after he whiffed it.

I lost my x and y wing, but it was an awesome trade.

Will it work every game? Heck no. If the Imp sends a defending leader allowing rerolls, the rebels will likely get stomped. But this forces the Imps to abandon their first turn plans with tying up one of their precious few leaders.

And the U Wing is a great ship with a fantastic tactic card. Getting free rebel troop on the ground can be huge. Worth the trade off.


The empire didn't put any other units in their DSUC system other than the mandatory 4 ties? Seems unwise. Good job capitalizing on that.


It was a harsh lesson for him, and one to be remembered for sure. Will make initial deployment of the Imp fleet that much harder.


Yeah it's like starting with a negative system almost. A liability you have to protect.
 
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Daniel K
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I agree. I don't know why they just didn't just give the rebels a Nebulon-B or something.
 
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