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Subject: Guardians/Mobs and weapons... rss

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MGAC California
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When do they get them?

We played through the intro twice last night just to get a feel for the game. When Mobs spawned, we saw in the rulebook that they get whatever bonuses their weapon gives them.

We could not find anything that told us to actually give them one.

Am I correct in assuming this will become clearer in later scenarios via actual text saying to give a weapon to a Mob/Guardian?

Thanks!
 
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Michael G
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Page 24 (Guardians), second sentence:

Whenever a Guardian (Agent, Boss, or Roaming Monster) spawns, players draw a Treasure card of the Current Level and equip the Guardian with it.
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Matthias M
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MGAC wrote:
When Mobs spawned, we saw in the rulebook that they get whatever bonuses their weapon gives them.

Well, they only use the bonusses from Enchantments. Unfortunately, the rulebook is not 100% clear about what Enchantments actually are. Some parts of the rulebook indicate that Enchantments are any kind of text on equipment cards, while the last pages with a list of possible bonusses state that bonusses are enchantments if and only if they are triggered by bams and/or diamonds.
 
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MGAC California
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In regards to my question, I was just thinking about weaponry, but I agree with your point on the enchantments.
 
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Loig Roumois
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well weapons COME from the treasure deck, sooo...
 
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Cris Bohde
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MetalPirate wrote:

Well, they only use the bonusses from Enchantments. Unfortunately, the rulebook is not 100% clear about what Enchantments actually are. Some parts of the rulebook indicate that Enchantments are any kind of text on equipment cards, while the last pages with a list of possible bonusses state that bonusses are enchantments if and only if they are triggered by bams and/or diamonds.


Quote:
From Page 53 of MD Rulebook:
Enchantments
The difference between a Combat Skill and an Enchantment
is that Enchantments must be triggered by or symbols
obtained on the Actor’s dice (or other Skills). Right after the
Combat Type, and before the colon, Enchantments list the type
and quantity of symbols that must be spent to trigger its effect.
Enchantments can only be triggered once per Combat Action,
unless they have the Repeat property:
(Repeat X) – This indicates that the Enchantment can be
triggered up to X times per Combat Action by spending the
indicated symbols each time.


So basically, an Enchantment is anything triggered by a Bam or a Diamond.

Combat Skills are "always on" effects/abilities that do not need a Bam or Diamond to use.
 
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Matthias M
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Bohde8781 wrote:
So basically, an Enchantment is anything triggered by a Bam or a Diamond.

Yes, but look at the section called Enchantment (page 20-something) and you find the contradictory statement that bam/diamond are not required.
 
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Cris Bohde
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MetalPirate wrote:
Bohde8781 wrote:
So basically, an Enchantment is anything triggered by a Bam or a Diamond.

Yes, but look at the section called Enchantment (page 20-something) and you find the contradictory statement that bam/diamond are not required.


Ahh, I think I see what you're talking about... it's in the Enemy section, not the Hero section.

Quote:
MD Rule Book, Page 22:
These Enchantments are cumulative with Enchantments triggered
on an Equipment card the Enemy may have. Enchantments
on the Enemy’s card take precedence over Enchantments on its
Equipment.
Some Enchantments don’t require dice results and are active as
soon as the Enemy spawns. Read the card to know which game
effects to apply.


Yes, agree that they should use the same terminology as in the Hero section: Enchantments = things triggered by Bam/Diamond, or Combat Skill = always on abilities

Someone just wasn't consistent in the terminology between the Hero and Enemy sections...
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Bohde8781 wrote:
Yes, agree that they should use the same terminology as in the Hero section: Enchantments = things triggered by Bam/Diamond, or Combat Skill = always on abilities

Someone just wasn't consistent in the terminology between the Hero and Enemy sections...


This topic has already been covered in depth and corrected in the Unofficial FAQ.

Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read:
Quote:
Guardians also may use the Combat Skill(s) or Enchantment(s) of any Combat categories they get dice from


If you look in the FAQ, you can find a full entry on this including a complete list of which effects enemies do not receive. The full discussion (if you're interested) starts around page 4.
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Sounga
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It's because people consider Enchantments only on weapons/armor, this is not right.

Rule book states a Minion Card reads like an equipment card, their text ability is considered an Enchantment, some enchantments such as (+1 Sword, +1 shield, etc) are active as soon as they spawn and do not require the BAM or Diamonds resource to activate.

Any text on a card is pretty much an Enchantment, and resolving a Mob to Weapon Enchantment goes in the order of Minion then Equipment.

Example.

Mob Card - 1 Bam Grants +2 Wounds

Weapon Card - 2 BAM grants 2 swords

Mob rolls 2 BAM. Mob spends 1 BAM on the mob card and gains +2 Wound, 1 BAM is left over and fizzles.

Example 2

Mob Spawns

Mob Card - +1 Blue Die

Equipment card - +1 Shield


Mob just spawned, the MOB cards Enchantment of (+1 Blue Die) is active and requires no resources (BAM, Dimaond) to activate, it's always active, the Equipment card gives +1 Shield and requires no resources (BAM, Diamond) to activate, it's always active.

The text determines the effect of the card. If they have weapon that gives them (BONUES) when being counter attacked, the enchantment never triggers, minions cannot be counter attacked (Unless there's an ability I don't now of) in that case it would trigger.

Again, the Text on the Minion/Equipment is the Enchantment, the MOB always resolves its enchantment before equipment enchantments.
 
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Matthias M
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.
 
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Sounga
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MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


I'm not sure how to add a picture/screen shot here, but please see the link provided.

http://i.imgur.com/AfFTdFz.jpg

This comes directly out of the rule book so I'm unsure as to why the user created FAQ is unsure of how the equipment types work.

Basically, if the mob can't do it, it can't do it.
 
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Sounga
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MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


Page 36 also states (With a picture & example)

Mob Attack
When a Mob attacks use the Attack dice indicated on the Enemy
card to resolve Combat rolls, no matter the number of Minions
in it. If the Boss is carrying a Weapon that matches the Attack
type being performed by the Mob, its dice are added to the Mob’s
Attack. The entire Mob focuses its Attack on a single target.

AKA - If the mob makes a Melee attack and has a ranged weapon, only the melee dice are rolled.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


We're likely not going to get an official ruling that makes sense any time soon (it is really hard to get an actual dev to answer a question like this). Thus, we agreed on something that seems to match the intent they were going for without breaking any game mechanics.

The rulebook contradicts itself, so we need some sort of solution, and if there is a better one, we'd love to discuss it.
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Sounga
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Clipper wrote:
MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


We're likely not going to get an official ruling that makes sense any time soon (it is really hard to get an actual dev to answer a question like this). Thus, we agreed on something that seems to match the intent they were going for without breaking any game mechanics.

The rulebook contradicts itself, so we need some sort of solution, and if there is a better one, we'd love to discuss it.


The Examples in the book seems cut and dry to me - Page 36 example & Text screen clipping.

http://i.imgur.com/tNiF3fP.jpg
 
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Sounga
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Clipper wrote:
MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


We're likely not going to get an official ruling that makes sense any time soon (it is really hard to get an actual dev to answer a question like this). Thus, we agreed on something that seems to match the intent they were going for without breaking any game mechanics.

The rulebook contradicts itself, so we need some sort of solution, and if there is a better one, we'd love to discuss it.


Page 24.

http://i.imgur.com/rQ90Un6.jpg

Direct clipping out of the rule book.
""""Guardians can use Combat Equipment: the Equipment’s Combat
dice are added to any Combat category (Melee, Ranged,
Magic, or Defense) the Guardian already has dice in. In other
words, Guardians cannot use Combat dice displayed in Combat
categories they don’t already have."""""


This text on page 24 that the community seems to have a hard time with says.


Everyone is quoting "the Equipment’s Combat
dice are added to any Combat category"

if we continue reading "(Melee, Ranged,
Magic, or Defense) the Guardian already has dice in"

It specifies ***IN OTHER WORDS, GUARDIANS CANNOT USE COMBAT DICE DISPLAYED IN COMBAT CATEGORIES THEY DONT ALREADY HAVE***

Everyone keeps quoting the first 10 words and ignores the rest of the rule. People here need to look over the rules again and read them to completion.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Sounga, we aren't arguing that point as we all agree with you.

What we are currently discussing is a different point entirely: whether or not an Enemy can use effects on weapons they qualify to use that may not be Combat Skills or Enchantments.

The rulebook states that they can use Enchantments on the weapons, but the fact that the word Enchantment is used with contradictory definitions throughout the rulebook is an issue.

For example, I think we all agree that a Skill such as "Defense: +1 Shield" should be usable by an Enemy, but according to the rules, this is not an Enchantment, as it does not require a Bam nor Diamond.

Thus, we extend the definition so that Enemies can use Combat Skills on Weapons/Armor/etc. too. However, most of us feel that we should draw the line at Combat Skills and not allow other non-Combat Skills such as the ones that change the Range at which a weapon can be used.

We do all agree that the Enemy must match the Weapon's dice for the Weapon's Skills to take any effect, but the question remains about which effects you apply.
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Doctor Bandage
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MetalPirate wrote:
DoctorBandage wrote:
Basically, there's an error on page 24 and the rule should read: [...]

Sorry, but this is your personal interpretation in your unofficial FAQ. If there is an official CMON ruling about this, please provide a link to it.


You're correct in that there is no official ruling yet. 2 weeks later and I'm still waiting for a reply from CMON. But it's not just my personal interpretation. I was originally of the opinion that only enchantments (those that require bams/diamonds) could be used, but after lots of discussion I was convinced otherwise by Clipper, Dummysphere, and a handful of other posters including yourself. So it's really more of the community's interpretation than just my own. Yes, I maintain the FAQ, but it's mostly filled with questions that have been asked and answered by the community. There's no need to be hostile about it towards me personally.

It took quite a bit of convincing before I even added the bit in question as it's a huge leap to assume the designer's made a mistake. But given the contradictory nature of enchantments, a community consensus, and an absence of designer input it felt like a reasonable enough conclusion.

Sounga wrote:
I'm not sure how to add a picture/screen shot here, but please see the link provided.

http://i.imgur.com/AfFTdFz.jpg

This comes directly out of the rule book so I'm unsure as to why the user created FAQ is unsure of how the equipment types work.

Basically, if the mob can't do it, it can't do it.


I don't think you're discussing about the same thing we are. We're talking about the difference between enchantments and combat skills. No one is disputing the rule about enemies only using equipment with matching categories.

Edit: See Clipper's post above, he explains it much better than I did.
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Sounga
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Page 33

Some special Equipment, Skills, and Signatures may also
add extra symbols for the Actors to spend.

Attacks & Defenders, be it Hero or Mob are Actors. The equipment effects would go into play.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Sounga, are you suggesting that all equipment effects go into play, regardless of whether or not they are enchantments? It's not quite clear from your post.
 
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Julien Duminil
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Sounga wrote:
Page 33

Some special Equipment, Skills, and Signatures may also
add extra symbols for the Actors to spend.

Attacks & Defenders, be it Hero or Mob are Actors. The equipment effects would go into play.

This quote is about Bam and Diamond symbols, that we agree go into play for enemies.

But what about:
• Javelin - Ranged Weapon that can be used to resolve Melee Actions at Range 0.
• Spear of Impalement - Melee Actions at Range 0-1.
...

They can open a new choice for (Ranged) Enemies: at range 1, do they do a Melee or Ranged attack?

To avoid resolving this question (awaiting for an official answer), we were a majority to agree to ignore those effects. Of course, each one is free to apply those effects the way they want, as the rules are unclear on this.
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Matthias M
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Page 23: "Guardians also may use the Enchantment(s) of any Combat categories they get dice from"
Page 53: "The difference between a Combat Skill and an Enchantment is that Enchantments must be triggered by [Bam] or [Diamond] symbols obtained on the Actor’s dice (or other Skills)."

It is obvious, that
* there must be matching dice on the equipment card to use it at all.
* bam/diamond-triggered text on those cards can be used.

It is not obvious whether there are other card text which may be used by Guardians as well.

My interpretation is: no, just equipment card texts triggered by bam/diamond symbols and nothing else.
Some other people say: yes, for thematic reasons, things like Attack: +1 sword "should" be usable by Guardians as well, even if it does not match the rules and they have to invent some arbitrary distinction between usable and not usable items.

We all wait for an official ruling. My interpretation is not the only possible one. Page 22 gives a more loose definition of Enchantments which contradicts page 53. There is not just one correct answer until CMON decides what is right.
 
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Julien Duminil
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MetalPirate wrote:
Some other people say: yes, for thematic reasons, things like Attack: +1 sword "should" be usable by Guardians as well, even if it does not match the rules and they have to invent some arbitrary distinction between usable and not usable items.

It's not for thematic reasons, we're just trying to figure out what is the intended definition on an Enchantment. The one that match the Goblin Warriors example p12 and definition p22; or the one p53. kiss
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Matthias M
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By the way: Asmodee Germany is preparing a German version of Massive Darkness and they are in contact with CMON for some rules clarifications. For instance, they will define what "reaching an exit" exactly means, namely "spend one movement point in the zone where the exit token is".

I know this from an Asmodee editor who is active in a German language board game forum. I pointed him to this thread. Unfortunately, CMON officials do not seem to watch the rule question threads here, but perhaps we can get an official answer indirectly via Asmodee Germany.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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MetalPirate wrote:
By the way: Asmodee Germany is preparing a German version of Massive Darkness and they are in contact with CMON for some rules clarifications. For instance, they will define what "reaching an exit" exactly means, namely "spend one movement point in the zone where the exit token is".

That's a really odd definition. If that's what Reach means, then Quest 1, where you must Reach the Library Token with certain Heroes and end the round there with no Enemies in the Room, means you must get to the Library Token Zone, spend a movement point to "Reach" it, then still wait out until the end of the Round. I see no reason why you would need to spend that movement point.

Are you sure that they aren't trying to source a rule for escaping the Exit instead? Escape is a term which is not defined in the base rulebook at all and was originally confusing. However, the term was defined in The Lava Bridge (A Quest of Crystal and Lava Quest 04) and it does not match the definition you are providing either. In that Quest, they define escape as ending your Activation in the Zone while there are no Enemies in the Zone. Again, no need to spend Movement Points, so I'm not sure what is going on here.

Quote:
I know this from an Asmodee editor who is active in a German language board game forum. I pointed him to this thread. Unfortunately, CMON officials do not seem to watch the rule question threads here, but perhaps we can get an official answer indirectly via Asmodee Germany.

It would certainly be nice, but given the answers we've had in the past, which are often contradictory (and it seems that this reach/escape thing might be another example of that, I doubt we'll get a truly straight answer.

That's why we draw lines in the sand that make the most sense to solve rules contradictions or apparent errors without getting official confirmation. We already know that getting a straight answer out of GG/CMON is a fruitless task.

For the debate on which Weapon Skills do and don't count for monsters, we have laid out arguments that while most of the Combat Skills and Enchantments (using p53 definition of both) are easy to apply to Enemies, most of the other Skills on Weapons are not easy to apply at all. Thus, to avoid headaches and a ton more questions to CMON, we draw the line at that point.
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