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Agricola (revised edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Caravan (B010) and Childless (B114) rss

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Danny S
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Childless (B114): At the start of each round, if you have at least 3 rooms but only 2 people, you get 1 food and 1 crop of your choice (grain or vegetable).

Caravan (B010): This card provides room for 1 person.

If I build the Caravan minor improvement and then play the Childless occupation will I receive the bonus? Or does the childless occupation only apply when you build rooms onto your house?
 
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Dave Moser
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Alas, but for the lack of a simple indefinite article...


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Geoff Burkman
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lincudine wrote:
I would read that as not applicable. A caravan is not a "room" even it provides physical "room". So no (IMO)


I concur.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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The Caravan is not a room.*


*If it were, it would have said so.
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ben bever
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The caravan, in the Dutch version, says specifically that it "counts as a room concerning the action "Child wish with room".

(It doesn't matter if it counts for urgent child wish since you can use the starter rooms for that.)

The fact that it counts as a room specifically for action "Child wish" could imply that it doesn't count as a room for other in-game room references.
Or, it could imply that it does count as a room, for child wish, and, logically following, for other in-game room refenrences. It makes sense that not all present and future cards that refer to rooms are listed on the caravan.

The fact that it doesn't count as a room in score points counting is a moot point; a caravan obviously can't be upgraded to stone so it's worth 0 points.

The fact that it "offers room" and is a caravan does not automatically make the caravan not have a room. If you go caravan shopping you'll notice there are 1-room caravans and 2-room caravans for sale. And a room in nothing more than a space with a floor, walls and a ceiling.

So literally speaking the caravan offers room and can be considerd a room. On wheels. Which does not mean that it counts as a room for other cards and effects in Agricola.
I'm not at all convinced yet that it is, or is not room.

In my latest game I had both caravan (which I played) and Childless (which I did not play because I did not want a rules discussion and I did want a third farmer.)
But I also had "Small scale farmer" (I don't know the english name, but it gives 1 wood at the end of every round if you have a house with no more than 2 rooms.)

Since I had the caravan I never build a third room in this game. I used 3 farmers until late game and got 2 more with urgent child wish. (I stuck three of them in the caravan because it was funny even if it's not literally allowed since the caravan only offers room for 1.)

Thing is, small scale farmer uses the word "house" with 2 rooms. I did actually have a third room (the caravan) but it was not part of the house.
Why would this card use the word "house"?
It could have said "if you have no more than 2 rooms" instead of "if you have a house with no more than 2 rooms".
It could be that "house" was added intentionally to make it clear that rooms not in the house (ie on cards) didn't count. Which implies that caravan is a room.

In any case the small time farmer card is clear in its text. The caravan unfortunately is not.


 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Caravan is not a room.
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ben bever
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Ponton wrote:
Caravan is not a room.


Is that somewhere is the rules, or in a compendium, or ruled by the game designer, or just your opinion?

The rules seem unclear about whether it counts as a room. A few in-game choices of words seem to imply that it does count as a room. More specifically a room not in the house that offers room for 1 person.
 
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Grant
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benbever wrote:
Ponton wrote:
Caravan is not a room.


Is that somewhere is the rules, or in a compendium, or ruled by the game designer, or just your opinion?

The rules seem unclear about whether it counts as a room. A few in-game choices of words seem to imply that it does count as a room. More specifically a room not in the house that offers room for 1 person.




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Geoff Burkman
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Cards that are something, say so explicitly.

E.g.

Bean Field says it is a field. So it is a field.
Caravan does not say it is a room. So it is not.
 
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ben bever
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Ponton wrote:
Cards that are something, say so explicitly.

E.g.
Bean Field says it is a field. So it is a field.
Caravan does not say it is a room. So it is not.


Thanks for the answer! The example really helps. (the naming and categoring is pretty consistent in Agricola and even mentioned in the rulebook)

One last minor question:
You say "Bean Field says it is a field. So it is a field."

Did you mean because "field" is in the name? (Bean Field)
-OR-
Because the text on Bean Field says it counts as a field?

I'm asking because in the Dutch (999 games) version "fields" are called "-acreages-" while "Bean Field" is called "-Beanfield-".
Therefore in the Dutch version it's not in the name like in the English version.
It does say it "counts as a field but only for vegetables".

The Caravan in the Dutch translation does not have "room" in it's name. But it does say it "counts as a room concerning child wish."

So (the Dutch version) is very much like Bean Field which counts as a field (except for grain planting and scoring). In the Dutch version the caravan counts as a room concerning child wish.
Since for Child Wish you can just move a farmer into the Caravan to create an empty room for the newborn, I have no idea why they would add "counts as a room concerning child wish" on the card, except if they wanted to make clear that it counted as a room.

Note that 999 games sometimes gets creative with its translations. They added a field pattern to the Bean Field card. And the very confusing "counts as a room concerning child wish".

Anyway I've learned that the "counts as a room concerning child wish" is not printed on the original and revised English cards, and most probably not on the German cards, so I'll write this off as a localisation error in the Dutch Game.










 
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benbever wrote:
Because the text on Bean Field says it counts as a field?


This. I meant: yes.
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Bean Field is a field because the card text says so. Caravan is not a room; it provides room. It is unfortunate that the card has been misinterpreted by the Dutch translator but stuff like this happens. I'd suggest contacting 999 - they might fix the text in future printruns.

For now, there's only two things that are defined by their name: wells and ovens.
 
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ben bever
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evacbs wrote:
benbever wrote:
Because the text on Bean Field says it counts as a field?


This.


Ok!
Since the text on the Dutch version of the Caravan says it counts as a room then in the Dutch version the Caravan probably does count as a room.

Which is a misprint. An effort by 999 games to make the card more clear but ended up making the card less clear. (I've seen them do that to other games in the past.) The English Caravan (and I assume the original German Caravan) doesn't have the text that it counts as a room.

grant5 wrote:




Very funny.
I actually did see the game designer tag and clicked on it, but it only referred to "Co-designer of the first Le Havre expansion".
There are a lot of game designers on boardgamegeek so I checked if he was involved with Agricola.

And I clicked on game publisher, which linked to "Lookout Games"; a publisher I've never heard of with a logo I've never seen. (I'm new to Agricola). The Lookout Games publisher page only has Agricola at the very bottom in linked items. Of course it turned out to be the original publisher...

My game box only has 999 Games (local publisher) and Uwe Rosenberg plastered all over it.

In my experience game designers are usually big on rules. But game publishers make a mess of rules. Except if they're the original publisher .

EDIT:
Thanks Grzegorz Kobiela for the quick and very detailed explanation! Much appreciated.
 
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