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Subject: Overwatch vs. Move&Fire - who shoots first? rss

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Salmiaque DePastille
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Dear Hulkmaniacs,
Sometimes we have vs. games in Space Hulk i.e. Terminators vs Traitors.
So I want to know (I don't find it in the rules) who shoots (and maybe kills) first, the Terminator in Overwatch or the Traitor coming into the Terminators ovewatch but going by Move&Fire to his direction?
 
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Damo
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Overwatch fire is a reaction to an action (in this case movement). Once an action within 12 spaces and LOS is completed, overwatch fire occurs.

A marine carrying out a move and fire action finishes this action when they have both moved AND fired.

The OW marine better hope the moving traitor misses.

From the original Traitor terminator White Dwarf article:



Also something to remember regarding command points.



*edited for much needed clarity
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Philip Lodge
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I'd agree with Damo.

I think I'm going to have to get myself some Traitors. I'd love to play a load of games with 2 sides battling it out for some artifact or ancient knowledge, whilst facing the threat of a Genestealer player too.
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Salmiaque DePastille
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Thank you very much - that helpes a lot
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Mark
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Damjon wrote:


A marine carrying out a move and fire action finishes their action when they have carried out both actions - move AND fire.

Just for clarity, despite having two "activities," Move AND Fire is a SINGLE Action. As is turning AND moving. For game purposes, these are not two actions combined, they are one action with two activities (or however you want to label it). So, there is no interrupting a single action, even if it has two "parts." And, actions that require 2 Action Points, such as firing a Heavy Flamer or a Terminator turning more than 90 degrees are still SINGLE Actions for all game purposes.

Damo, that is a damn good summary! Combat with both sides shooting is fun, and scary as hell. Overlapping Overwatch and judicious use of Command Points are awful important.

Use of Command Points is worth noting. For example, a Marine is on Overwatch. A Traitor Marine moves and fires at the Marine, but misses. The Marine on Overwatch must fire back. Or, the Marine player could instead spend a Command Point on the Marine (thus, losing Overwatch). And, instead, move the Marine out of harm's way. Or, maybe, before firing Overwatch and then taking return fire, have another Marine close a door in front of the Traitor. The Marine on Overwatch no longer sees the Traitor, so does not fire. But, can gun down the Traitor next turn.

Finally, the situation will arise where a Marine is standing still, minding his own business, and a bad guy jumps out behind him and starts blazing away. Despite having rounds ricocheting off his armored back, the good guy doesn't see the shooter, so does not take an action (assume he has Action Points). We felt that was artificial. So we House Ruled that a Marine who was fired upon could use Command Points, even if the shooter was out of his LOS.
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Michael
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Can I just jump in with two pennies worth. whistle

I may be wrong...but

I seem to recall a CP can be spent on any marine as long as at least one has a LOS to the trigger..

Represents overall commander view ..
Is this in the 1st edition ?????

Mark, your marine shot in the back could turn and fire if the Traitor was seen by another...?
 
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Mark
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mixykym wrote:
Can I just jump in with two pennies worth. whistle

I may be wrong...but

I seem to recall a CP can be spent on any marine as long as at least one has a LOS to the trigger..

Represents overall commander view ..
Is this in the 1st edition ?????

Mark, your marine shot in the back could turn and fire if the Traitor was seen by another...?

In V1 and V3 (I don't have V4 in front of me), the CP could only be spent on the Marine that witnessed the action. V2 does not have Command Points.

HOWEVER the 2009 SH 3 Official FAQ changes things:

Q. Can you clarify how I can spend command points?
A. Command points have priority over everything. In your
turn, spend them however, wherever, and whenever you
want with no restrictions, interrupting another Space
Marine’s actions if desired. In the Genestealer's turn, you
have to wait until one of your Space Marines sees a
Genestealer do something. Then decide if you want to
spend any command points – you may do so to carry out
a single action with a single Space Marine anywhere on
the board (not just one that saw the Genestealer do
something).
After spending any command points, check
for overwatch shots for Space Marines that didn’t have
command points spent upon them.


Underline emphasis is mine.

So, you are correct specifically for V3 (and maybe V4?).
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Michael
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Thanks Mark..

My muddled brain had read it somewhere ..
I have 1st plus all Exp', campaign book , 2nd & 4th
Sold my 3rd edtion as its basically same as 4th..

All the WD articles as well.
I just couldn't place where I had read it.
 
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Damo
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ZombieMark wrote:
Damjon wrote:


A marine carrying out a move and fire action finishes their action when they have carried out both actions - move AND fire.

Just for clarity, despite having two "activities," Move AND Fire is a SINGLE Action. As is turning AND moving. For game purposes, these are not two actions combined, they are one action with two activities (or however you want to label it). So, there is no interrupting a single action, even if it has two "parts." And, actions that require 2 Action Points, such as firing a Heavy Flamer or a Terminator turning more than 90 degrees are still SINGLE Actions for all game purposes.

Damo, that is a damn good summary! Combat with both sides shooting is fun, and scary as hell. Overlapping Overwatch and judicious use of Command Points are awful important.

Use of Command Points is worth noting. For example, a Marine is on Overwatch. A Traitor Marine moves and fires at the Marine, but misses. The Marine on Overwatch must fire back. Or, the Marine player could instead spend a Command Point on the Marine (thus, losing Overwatch). And, instead, move the Marine out of harm's way. Or, maybe, before firing Overwatch and then taking return fire, have another Marine close a door in front of the Traitor. The Marine on Overwatch no longer sees the Traitor, so does not fire. But, can gun down the Traitor next turn.

Finally, the situation will arise where a Marine is standing still, minding his own business, and a bad guy jumps out behind him and starts blazing away. Despite having rounds ricocheting off his armored back, the good guy doesn't see the shooter, so does not take an action (assume he has Action Points). We felt that was artificial. So we House Ruled that a Marine who was fired upon could use Command Points, even if the shooter was out of his LOS.


Thanks for that. I wrote this before drinking coffee. My bad.
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Mark
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Damjon wrote:
Thanks for that. I wrote this before drinking coffee. My bad.


No, you've done good work here. It can be counter-intuitive and it don't roll right off the tongue.
 
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ZombieMark wrote:

Finally, the situation will arise where a Marine is standing still, minding his own business, and a bad guy jumps out behind him and starts blazing away. Despite having rounds ricocheting off his armored back, the good guy doesn't see the shooter, so does not take an action (assume he has Action Points). We felt that was artificial. So we House Ruled that a Marine who was fired upon could use Command Points, even if the shooter was out of his LOS.


Ah yes... this is an essential house rule. Seen needs to include realised action. Not for OW fire but for CP spend. I need to word this into my summary. It's currently undergoing another huge fine tune.
 
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Philip Lodge
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ZombieMark wrote:
The Marine on Overwatch must fire back.


Which editions was it 'must' fire and which editions was it a choice, I forget. I'm going to have to spend some cash and finally get 4th ed just to study the rules.

ZombieMark wrote:

HOWEVER the 2009 SH 3 Official FAQ changes things:
Then decide if you want to
spend any command points – you may do so to carry out
a single action with a single Space Marine anywhere on
the board (not just one that saw the Genestealer do
something).
After spending any command points, check
for overwatch shots for Space Marines that didn’t have
command points spent upon them. [/i]

Underline emphasis is mine.


This changes everything but they did ditch a lot form 3rd edition, like the awful LoS they added thinking it fixed things that weren't even broke. Or was that 2nd! Guess i need those books too!!! I only own 1st and expansions.
 
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Mark
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4E gives Marines on Overwatch the choice to fire. Warning: once your Marine players play Overwatch with a choice, they ain't going back to the old way. This would have been a much bigger deal with 1E, when clearing Jams required two steps and a total of 3 AP's. In the newer version(s) Jams are a nuisance, not a near catastrophe.

I like 4E's LOS sight rules. The best of all versions.

2E is unique on many levels. It came out seven years after the original (1996). After GW had established itself as a leader in the industry. But, before GW mastered CAD design and plastic miniature manufacturing. So, it used the same genestealers as 1E and new plastic terminators that were an improvement on the primitive ones in 1E. They were competent, not inspiring. To compensate for its not "really new and improved contents" (compared to the original), it has a more modern look, with "modern" for its day rules. It replicates and updates. It really is a tribute to how much GW got right the first time 2E tries so hard to be better.

Of course, 3E is GW in its prime. Confident, capable, comfortable with combining nostalgia, and "new and improved" on every level. Think about what it does. It sets out to improve on a an iconic game with every device available for a modern miniature manufacturer. This it does on every level, while always paying tribute to the original (and, its two expansions, too). With only a few tweaks. For one, it combines the good stuff from the original's two expansions, with a streamlined versions of psychics. For another, its magnificent miniatures are optimized for the boardgame, instead of for Mothership 40K. And, its other components are simply lush.

Yes, 3E/4E are not as hard for the Marines. But, c'mon, the genius of Space Hulk is it is humans versus aliens controlled by the game system, operated by a human player, instead of AI. You don't root for the Aliens in Aliens.

You root for the humans (and the synthetic). But, NOT that corporate weasel Burke.



4E slightly tweaks what is probably near perfection. And, adds few new wrinkles (small ones, really). Depending on your preferred conspiracy theory, 4E makes the game available again for those who missed out on 3E. To the delight of fans who were finally able to get a copy of the game. Or, it was a crass money grab by a company which seems to place profits above bankruptcy. Or, infinitely worse, it is a major crime against humanity by undercutting prior customers and collectors who were counting on 3E's rarity to fund their retirements.


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Philip Lodge
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The might of gave marines 1 less square to worry about from those corners and a saving of 2AP. But, downgrading the +2rm Thunder Hammer and Lightning Claws to +1rm seriously reduced their invincibility.

Guess what I've been working on all day? Just adding the Close Assault table to my print out, quite few of the weapons are different in what's a front or side square bonus. Managed to come up with a nice system, took way too long to reveal itself to me.

^ Front Square / <^> Front and Sides / <^ Front and Armed side / * No Facing. Beautiful yet so simple

I use 'No Facing' for Familiars. They are basically wound counters for a Magus, sharing the square, taking the first hit and a CA+1rm bonus when the Magus is assaulted, form any side (hence 'No Facing').

I managed to snip down the weapons table too, I wasn't happy with how many columns it had, always wanted the doors and bulkheads to be represented but with out been, now they are. Reload AP and OW range better placed too.

I should have it uploaded later.
 
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Nearly forgot... I added '(felt)' after 'Seen Action', the 1st time it's mentioned. Can't believe I hadn't picked up on that problem in game before.

Thank you for that one.
 
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ZombieMark wrote:
You don't root for the Aliens in Aliens.


Yeah but the Terminators in Space Hulk are the bad guys, fascist dictatorship and all that. #GoStealers
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Damo
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Jacky Blue Note wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:
You don't root for the Aliens in Aliens.


Yeah but the Terminators in Space Hulk are the bad guys, fascist dictatorship and all that. #GoStealers


I loved playing the stealers. I always used to heckle the marine players, while they were planning their next move, by leaning across the table and whispering, "They're going to die..."

zombierobotninja

For me and my group, we didn't go past 1st Ed. Clunky models aside, it required strong tactics, and a bit of luck, to win as the Marine player.
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Mark
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Jacky Blue Note wrote:
ZombieMark wrote:
You don't root for the Aliens in Aliens.


Yeah but the Terminators in Space Hulk are the bad guys, fascist dictatorship and all that. #GoStealers

Damn Fascists give Fascism a bad name.

And you can quote me on it.*




*Except, if there are any Thought Police around. Then, you don't know me.
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