Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: A little row over transgender children... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mutton Chops
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems that a couple in the UK are concerned that their six-year-old child will suffer "distress" from being "confused" about another child at the school identifying as a girl, and consequently wearing the uniform approved by the school for girls - and that their child was at risk of "...being disciplined for misidentifying the gender of the [other] pupil". Whence cometh this terrible confusion, I wonder? Oh, right, here it is:

Quote:
The Rowes say the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts with their Christian beliefs and they are seeking a legal challenge against the school's actions.


What a surprise. I wonder if their child would have been quite so "confused" if his parents weren't so very keen on him being in that state? Instead of being reasonable, decent human beings, and simply explaining that another boy wearing a skirt doesn't actually negatively affect anyone in the school (any more than someone wearing, say, a crucifix does), they're going to play the "implied persecution" card, with the generous help of the foaming maniacs at the Christian Law Centre (who are often behind the utter wastes of public time and money that these contrived cases are).

I thought it would be nice for the non-religious US-based RSPers to know that despite the fact that 53% of people described themselves as having "no religion" in a recent survey National Centre for Social Research*, the US doesn't have a complete monopoly on raving religious nutters.


* Interestingly, among those aged between 18 and 25, the proportion was higher, at 71%. Religion in the UK truly is moribund.
19 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
United States
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
Don't know about distress, but I'm certain a six-year-old child would be confused, as would the six-year-old who is dressing as a female. The parents, however, are at fault -- they need to explain to their child in simple terms what is going on without being judgmental.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's a scene in the movie "To Kill a Mockingbird" (based on the scene in the book) where Scout is chewed out in the kitchen about how to treat a guest. The line is "I don't care if he wants to eat the tablecloth. He's your guest, and you let him." Well, here it's "I don't care if that child wants to be called a boy, a girl, or neither. She's your classmate and so you let her." It's basic politeness IMO.
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
Don't know about distress, but I'm certain a six-year-old child would be confused, as would the six-year-old who is dressing as a female. The parents, however, are at fault -- they need to explain to their child in simple terms what is going on without being judgmental.

Yes, I admit I have to wonder how much the child's gender identity is being pushed by the parents but as far as some other kid in school is concerned that child has to be whatever gender the child claims to be.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Pennsylvania
msg tools
badge
Bitter acerbic harridan
Avatar
mbmbmb
They're suing over the school's flexibility over the school uniform for one student, who isn't their child? Uh, okey dokey, little snowflakes.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andre
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suspect that their childs "confusion" would go away if they were handed a handsome check by the School, but that is unlikely to happen, laughs.

The confusion could have been handled, without incident, here. But such is the nature of this litigious society we live in.shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.D. Hall
United States
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Don't know about distress, but I'm certain a six-year-old child would be confused, as would the six-year-old who is dressing as a female. The parents, however, are at fault -- they need to explain to their child in simple terms what is going on without being judgmental.

Yes, I admit I have to wonder how much the child's gender identity is being pushed by the parents but as far as some other kid in school is concerned that child has to be whatever gender the child claims to be.

Exactly my concern, but as a parent, I am exceptionally loathe to criticize other people's parenting skills. Since this doesn't fall under the category of loving Hitler or teaching them how to make pipe bombs, I don't want to criticize either set. But really, life is confusing enough -- tell your children about what they face and they will face it in a much better frame of mind.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Pennsylvania
msg tools
badge
Bitter acerbic harridan
Avatar
mbmbmb
remorseless1 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Don't know about distress, but I'm certain a six-year-old child would be confused, as would the six-year-old who is dressing as a female. The parents, however, are at fault -- they need to explain to their child in simple terms what is going on without being judgmental.

Yes, I admit I have to wonder how much the child's gender identity is being pushed by the parents but as far as some other kid in school is concerned that child has to be whatever gender the child claims to be.

Exactly my concern, but as a parent, I am exceptionally loathe to criticize other people's parenting skills. Since this doesn't fall under the category of loving Hitler or teaching them how to make pipe bombs, I don't want to criticize either set. But really, life is confusing enough -- tell your children about what they face and they will face it in a much better frame of mind.


They're the ones suing the school and running their mouths to the media. I think this goes well beyond parenting skills. It's a form of adult bullying.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Salch
United States
Bristol
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, usually in these kind of cases I come down on the side of religious freedom. Even trying to balance rights it's clearly in favor of the transgendered kid. (Not commenting on the legitimacy of the claim) But to sue the school over their son's confusion? That's just wrong.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
costguy wrote:
Yes, usually in these kind of cases I come down on the side of religious freedom. Even trying to balance rights it's clearly in favor of the transgendered kid. (Not commenting on the legitimacy of the claim) But to sue the school over their son's confusion? That's just wrong.


I would guess most of the confusion stems from the parents who are being enabled and supported by an anti-LGBT lobby group called Christian Concern.

Also the trans issue may or may not be relevant. The 6 year old may be trans, may be gender-fluid, or may not be either. However even if the child is just going through a phase of wanting to wear a skirt then where is the harm?

Incidentally this comes hot on the heels of a major department store doing away with 'boys' and 'girls' clothes labels. Instead they have a 'boys & girls' label and a 'girls & boys' label. The response by a senior Tory councillor in Portsmouth has been a suggestion that the store's loyalty cards should be burned publicly.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The harm actually stems from the dress code which says that girls dress this way and boys dress that way and never the two shall meet.

If you got rid of that, then the boy who is going through a skirt phase doesn't have a problem so long as it's the appropriate length, etc.

Why are schools regulating gender stereotyping in this day and age?
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jythier wrote:
The harm actually stems from the dress code which says that girls dress this way and boys dress that way and never the two shall meet.

If you got rid of that, then the boy who is going through a skirt phase doesn't have a problem so long as it's the appropriate length, etc.

Why are schools regulating gender stereotyping in this day and age?


I think there is agreement there. It wasn't too long ago that it would be a major scandal if a girl (or woman) wore trousers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel like the bigger problem even than that, which the dress code is trying to fix but failing, is bullying. Ie if a boy wears something traditionally feminine he will get bullied, and the schools don't want to deal with that. But really, that's teaching conformity and victim-blaming and that creativity and outside-the-box living, which is essential to innovation, is wrong and undesirable.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jythier wrote:
I feel like the bigger problem even than that, which the dress code is trying to fix but failing, is bullying. Ie if a boy wears something traditionally feminine he will get bullied, and the schools don't want to deal with that. But really, that's teaching conformity and victim-blaming and that creativity and outside-the-box living, which is essential to innovation, is wrong and undesirable.


I think UK schools tend to be better than US ones in how they deal with bullying. In this case the school is supportive of the child wearing a skirt or trousers. And to be fair the church (in the form of the director of education for the Diocese of Portsmouth) are supportive of the school. The BBC cuts down the statement from the Diocese which says more fully - "Church of England schools are inclusive environments where pupils learn to respect diversity of all kinds. Like any other state school, our schools comply with the legal requirements of the Equalities Act 2010. Among other things, this requires schools to accept the wishes of children and their families with regard to gender identity. It would be unlawful for any of our schools to do otherwise."
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Martyn
United States
Guilford
VT
flag msg tools
EXCELSIOR!!!
badge
ZOMGALOMES!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As both a mental health counselor and someone who lives in a pretty progressive corner of the world, I can state that in my experience kids don't stay confused about things like this for very long unless someone goes out of their way to keep them confused.

It's becoming increasingly common in my area to see kids wearing gender-nonconforming clothing, and I've only ever seen other kids roll with it. Caring about how someone is dressed is learned behavior -- kids care about how people act.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
Oh noes - soon they will be making all the boys wear dresses, and they'll be turning them all into -

No, wait, that was the last few hundred years of European (and European descended) societies until the early 20th century, and would you believe it, it didn't result in generations of "confused" children.

These people shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Hankins
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There was a school recently that decided to tackle (/avoid) this problem by banning skirts for anyone: The Telegraph - School bans skirts to make uniform 'gender neutral' for transgender students and combat complaints about 'decency'

I've found that the people who comment on right-wing media artiles (on social media) tend not to be happy regardless; any form of gender neutral uniform code is considered 'PC Gone Mad'.

mutton_chops wrote:
I wonder if their child would have been quite so "confused" if his parents weren't so very keen on him being in that state?


That tends to be my thinking also.

Being told that you can be whatever you want to be and that you can wear whatever you want isn't confusing. Being told that you are a boy/girl and that this means that you must dress, behave and express yourself in a certain way can be very confusing if that's not the way you want to live your life.

It's ultimately not different to the idea that homosexuality is 'confusing'; there ought to be nothing confusing about being heterosexual while knowing that homosexuality exists... but if you happen to be homosexual and your parents have raised you to believe that is bad and immoral (or worse, completely failed to acknowledge that it exists) then that would be rather confusing.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wight1984 wrote:
There was a school recently that decided to tackle (/avoid) this problem by banning skirts for anyone: The Telegraph - School bans skirts to make uniform 'gender neutral' for transgender students and combat complaints about 'decency'


Although I have concerns about that approach. It is basically saying that skirts cannot be gender-neutral. That they are purely for girls. In a way it is entrenching gender-stereotyping not allowing a gender neutral approach to school-dress.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Hankins
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
andyl wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
There was a school recently that decided to tackle (/avoid) this problem by banning skirts for anyone: The Telegraph - School bans skirts to make uniform 'gender neutral' for transgender students and combat complaints about 'decency'


Although I have concerns about that approach. It is basically saying that skirts cannot be gender-neutral. That they are purely for girls. In a way it is entrenching gender-stereotyping not allowing a gender neutral approach to school-dress.


Avoiding any types of clothing that are coded as male or female may not be doing anything to combat gendered fashion but I'm not sure that it's doing much to strengthen those norms either. British school uniforms are already fairly strict and allow for very little choice anyway; is 'you must wear trousers' any worse than 'you must wear a blazer'?

I'm not sure that there's any deep message to be found anyway; the school likely knew that letting boys wear skirts would result in mocking articles in the Telegraph and Daily Mail so they thought that this would be a less controversial option (although the Telegraph still printed an article about it anyway).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mutton Chops
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wight1984 wrote:
I've found that the people who comment on right-wing media artiles (on social media) tend not to be happy regardless; any form of gender neutral uniform code is considered 'PC Gone Mad'.


I struggle to comprehend what reasonable objection could be made to gender-neutral uniforms. One of the justifications for school uniform in toto - and one which is often heard, incidentally, from the very same kind of sources as are making the objections you allude to above - is that uniforms instill a sense of belonging and discipline...uniformity, indeed. Surely something that extends such uniformity across the gender divide would be a good thing, then, by their very own lights?

Perhaps I am getting "confused"...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wight1984 wrote:
I'm not sure that there's any deep message to be found anyway; the school likely knew that letting boys wear skirts would result in mocking articles in the Telegraph and Daily Mail so they thought that this would be a less controversial option (although the Telegraph still printed an article about it anyway).

You are probably right. However a number of other schools* have gone to a choice of skirts or trousers. The papers may well mock the first few, but when a mass of schools move the same way, the first few schools begin to look more like trailblazers.

* Some of them fairly surprising like St Anthony’s Catholic primary school in East Dulwich.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G Rowls
msg tools
Mostly made up of spare parts and sarcasm! ... HTTP Error 418 I'm a Teapot!
Avatar
mbmb
andyl wrote:
Wight1984 wrote:
I'm not sure that there's any deep message to be found anyway; the school likely knew that letting boys wear skirts would result in mocking articles in the Telegraph and Daily Mail so they thought that this would be a less controversial option (although the Telegraph still printed an article about it anyway).

You are probably right. However a number of other schools* have gone to a choice of skirts or trousers. The papers may well mock the first few, but when a mass of schools move the same way, the first few schools begin to look more like trailblazers.

* Some of them fairly surprising like St Anthony’s Catholic primary school in East Dulwich.



Or they could just do what they normally do and lie to the child by tellling it that the other child in question is in fact the mythical true scotsman mentioned so oftn in RSP.whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.