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Subject: Army reaction into enemy cavalry hex rss

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John Clocherty
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In my current game, a CSA army (without a Cavalry leader) has succeeded in reacting an army when a US force tried to enter the army's hex. The CSA army is also adjacent to a US cavalry leader with an SP. The army is clearly allowed to react into the US cavalry hex as an overrun will potentially occur. (12 SPs vs 1). However, is the USA cavalry force allowed to undertake a Cavalry retreat? (noting that this is not the CSA impulse, but actually the USA impulse; CSA is reacting into he hex, not moving into the hex)
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Ken
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An overrun is a form of attack, so I don't see why the cavalry leader would not be allowed to attempt to withdraw.
 
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Dave Turansky
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I don't remember this question coming up before. It's interesting that whenever one thinks that all of the questions have been answered, new ones keep popping up. A strict reading of the rules indicates that a cavalry force could attempt to retreat before combat, but no force (either cavalry or infantry) would be able to react.

12.3.4 Armies that May React: Reaction movement may be made only by Armies of the player whose half of the Pulse is not in progress.

13.1.2 A cavalry force always has the option to retreat before combat if the force entering the cavalry’s hex is composed of non-cavalry.
 
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Ken
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Armies don't react to retreats. So a cavalry general retreating before combat won't trigger any reaction and should follow the retreat priorities in the combat section (which would prohibit retreating into a reaction radius unless there's no other valid hex for the retreat).
 
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Tom Cundiff
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You have misunderstood the question.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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DaveTu wrote:
I don't remember this question coming up before. It's interesting that whenever one thinks that all of the questions have been answered, new ones keep popping up. A strict reading of the rules indicates that a cavalry force could attempt to retreat before combat, but no force (either cavalry or infantry) would be able to react.

12.3.4 Armies that May React: Reaction movement may be made only by Armies of the player whose half of the Pulse is not in progress.

13.1.2 A cavalry force always has the option to retreat before combat if the force entering the cavalry’s hex is composed of non-cavalry.


I agree, this does appear to be an ambiguity that slipped through. The problem I have with the interpretation you suggest is the following:

Quote:
13.1.3 ... If the force does retreat, then the moving enemy force may move no further and is said to have been “screened” by the cavalry force. No Leader Loss Checks are made for a screened force since no combat has occurred.


First, it seems that it is being implicitly assumed that the force entering the cavalry hex is moving, i.e. belongs to the phasing player. Further, what are the implications of a reacting arming having been "screened" by the cavalry force? I think ideally you'd want to make it explicit whether or not the cavalry force is allowed to "Cavalry Retreat Before Combat", and if so then make it explicit what exactly it means for the reacting army to have been "screened". I'm inclined to say that I don't think the phasing player should be able to use cavalry retreat before combat, although I cannot really make a "legal" case for that interpretation.
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Dave Turansky
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deadkenny wrote:
I'm inclined to say that I don't think the phasing player should be able to use cavalry retreat before combat, although I cannot really make a "legal" case for that interpretation.


I agree with that. The non-army reaction rules follow the army reaction rules. The non-phasing player cannot react. The cavalry retreat before combat rules are not limited to the non-phasing player. I think that's probably an oversight. On the other hand, cavalry would probably not sit still and allow itself to be overrun.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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DaveTu wrote:
I agree with that. The non-army reaction rules follow the army reaction rules. The non-phasing player cannot react. The cavalry retreat before combat rules are not limited to the non-phasing player. I think that's probably an oversight. On the other hand, cavalry would probably not sit still and allow itself to be overrun.


That's true, and it does seem counter-intuitive to force the cavalry to stay and be overrun. However, as you've noted, it is completely explicit that armies of the phasing player cannot use reaction move. Imagine a situation where the non-phasing player reacted his army into a position adjacent to a small army of the phasing player. There is no doubt that if that non-phasing player army were to get another reaction, it could move to overrun that small phasing player army. So if an army (albeit a small one) can be "stuck" in place and overrun, unable to use reaction itself to get away, I don't think it's inconsistent to impose the same on a phasing player's cavalry.
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Peter Walsh
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A cavalry force using "retreat before combat" is not reaction movement from the perspective of the rules. "Reaction movement" is specifically defined. Under the rules as written it was limited to armies only. What cavalry does during retreat before combat is *never* reaction under RAW and I don't think it should be seen as such with the WGA rules. The WGA rules allow any leader led force to react to a move into its hex, but this only applies to the forces of the non-phasing player.

A cavalry retreat before combat is always allowed as long as the appropriate conditions obtain. There is no distinction between a phasing and a non-phasing player in a cav. retreat.

In the situation outlined by the OP I think the cav. gets to attempt retreat before combat.
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Pete Walsh wrote:
A cavalry force using "retreat before combat" is not reaction movement from the perspective of the rules....


I agree, and wasn't claiming anything different. Dave was simply making the point that it didn't make 'sense' for the cavalry to be stuck. However, all forces of the phasing player are "stuck" in a sense, aside of course from the one that the phasing player has activated. Again, if you're going to allow the Cavalry Retreat Before Combat to be used by the phasing player, you're also going to have to clarify what it means for the reacting army to have been "screened". As I noted previously, I have the impression from the rules around the cav retreat that the implicit intention was for it to only be used by the non-phasing player. However, it is an ambiguity, and it would be best for players to agree on how to play it before it comes up in a game.
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Ken
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Is it me, or are we talking past each other a bit? It sounds like there's two things going on:

1. Whether or not a cavalry force can retreat before combat to avoid an overrun due to reaction movement.

2. Cavalry retreating normally screens a moving/phasing force such that it ends movement - it has ceased movement to engage in combat. Does this mean anything if the answer to 1 is "yes" and the force successfully withdraws?

The consensus appears to be "yes" to #1, with a concern that some clarification for #2 - stating clearly that the reacting force can or cannot continue reacting after the retreat before combat.

I would lean towards "There is no impact for a reacting force." for this reason - if a reacting force engages in an overrun, it is not prevented from reacting further as a result of the overrun. The out-of-sequence combat is pretty much ignored, and if a further reaction is triggered by the phasing player, the reacting force can continue to attempt to react. This could mean that the same cavalry force ends up retreating multiple times to avoid the overrun as a result of multiple reactions.

Or am I missing what people are discussing?
 
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Peter Walsh
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deadkenny wrote:
Pete Walsh wrote:
A cavalry force using "retreat before combat" is not reaction movement from the perspective of the rules....


I agree, and wasn't claiming anything different. Dave was simply making the point that it didn't make 'sense' for the cavalry to be stuck. However, all forces of the phasing player are "stuck" in a sense, aside of course from the one that the phasing player has activated. Again, if you're going to allow the Cavalry Retreat Before Combat to be used by the phasing player, you're also going to have to clarify what it means for the reacting army to have been "screened". As I noted previously, I have the impression from the rules around the cav retreat that the implicit intention was for it to only be used by the non-phasing player. However, it is an ambiguity, and it would be best for players to agree on how to play it before it comes up in a game.


I don't see any ambiguity here unless you are conflating "cavalry retreat" with "reaction". Reaction rules prevail for what the non-phasing army does; cavalry retreat rules prevail for what the cavalry does. A reacting army is not screened because the concept has no relevance in this situation. A reacting army does not have any further movement to forfeit via screening. Should the situation continue to develop and the non-phasing player's army successfully react again then it *can* react again. Should the cav. force have an opportunity to retreat before combat multiple times as the situation develops then it *can* do so.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Pete Walsh wrote:
...I don't see any ambiguity here unless you are conflating "cavalry retreat" with "reaction"....


I'm not conflating the two things. If there was no ambiguity though, I doubt there would have been a question asked in the first place, and if it had been asked anyway the first answer would have pointed to the explicit rule that unambiguously answered the question. I don't think that's the situation here.
 
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Peter Walsh
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The discussion has turned on quotation of two rules 12.3.4 and 13.1.2. The only way there is "ambiguity" is if one conflates the two and applies both to the cavalry. What the cavalry does is not reaction, it is retreat before combat therefore 12.3.4 does not apply to the cavalry. To see it as doing so is to conflate retreat before combat with reaction. The reacting army is not "screened" because its entire movement occurs and is completed in one function called "reaction". The rules are complex, but that is not the same thing as ambiguous. There are many examples of ambiguity in this rules set, but this isn't one of them.
 
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Pete Walsh wrote:
The discussion has turned on quotation of two rules 12.3.4 and 13.1.2. The only way there is "ambiguity" is if one conflates the two and applies both to the cavalry. What the cavalry does is not reaction, it is retreat before combat therefore 12.3.4 does not apply to the cavalry. To see it as doing so is to conflate retreat before combat with reaction. The reacting army is not "screened" because its entire movement occurs and is completed in one function called "reaction". The rules are complex, but that is not the same thing as ambiguous. There are many examples of ambiguity in this rules set, but this isn't one of them.


In addition to 13.1.2 I mentioned 13.1.3. Both of them are related to Cavalry Retreat Before Combat. At no point have I conflated that with Army Reaction. I simply disagree with you that there is no ambiguity. In fact I don't find the rule to be complex at all, although that's a relative thing I suppose. Either the phasing player can, or cannot use Cavalry Retreat Before Combat as the result of a non-phasing player army reacting into a hex containing his cavalry. Neither case is particularly complex, however, it would be clear if it was explicitly stated one way or the other. Many such examples came up when the unofficial 3rd Edition rules were being worked on. In some cases explicit language was added.
 
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Peter Walsh
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The phasing player can use cavalry retreat before combat. That's 13.1.2.

Quote:
A cavalry force always has the option to retreat before combat if the force entering the cavalry’s hex is composed of non-cavalry.


The use of *always* is unambiguous. No additional language needed. The earlier discussion included quotation of 12.3.4, which muddied the waters, but it simply doesn't apply. That's all that's needed to address the OP's question.
 
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Pete Walsh wrote:
The phasing player can use cavalry retreat before combat. That's 13.1.2.

Quote:
A cavalry force always has the option to retreat before combat if the force entering the cavalry’s hex is composed of non-cavalry.


The use of *always* is unambiguous. No additional language needed. The earlier discussion included quotation of 12.3.4, which muddied the waters, but it simply doesn't apply. That's all that's needed to address the OP's question.


So, for example, if a player moves a non-cavalry force into a hex with his own cavalry, he can use cavalry retreat before combat to retreat his own cavalry out of the hex?
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Peter Walsh
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