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Subject: Tokens not fit for purpose? Aka - you had to do ONE thing... rss

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Mark Turner
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Out of the box, the hidden identity tokens in this game are a thing of beauty, heavy, smooth, simple, go together with a satisfying clunk.

And yet, and yet...

arrrgh!

On close inspection, some have little dots, and once you see them, you can't unsee them.

Sorry to say this, but unless a solution can be found this renders the game somewhat unplayable, at least with the tokens as shipped.

A hidden identity game absolutely requires identities to be hidden, or else, well, there is no game.

So how do you keep the identities hidden in this game?

You can't hide the tokens under a piece of paper or some such, as they need to be available to be moved. The dots mean that people will quickly work out whether a tile has been switched or not.

Has anyone worked out a solution to this?
 
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Alias Saila
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This is a problem with many hidden identity games. For example, much as I love One Night Ultimate Werewolf, the hidden identity cards are easily marked and identifiable (even when they are sleeved).

My best advice is that if it becomes too much of a problem then just keep your hidden identity tokens in your pockets, or covered over with some paper.
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Mark Turner
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RedSnowCastle wrote:
This is a problem with many hidden identity games. For example, much as I love One Night Ultimate Werewolf, the hidden identity cards are easily marked and identifiable (even when they are sleeved).

My best advice is that if it becomes too much of a problem then just keep your hidden identity tokens in your pockets, or covered over with some paper.


Which would work, except that game relies on being able to switch those tokens around...

PS one night ultimate werewolf cards can be sleeved with coloured backed card sleeves. If any become marked, just put on a new sleeve. Works great...
 
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Alias Saila
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MrMT wrote:
RedSnowCastle wrote:
This is a problem with many hidden identity games. For example, much as I love One Night Ultimate Werewolf, the hidden identity cards are easily marked and identifiable (even when they are sleeved).

My best advice is that if it becomes too much of a problem then just keep your hidden identity tokens in your pockets, or covered over with some paper.


Which would work, except that game relies on being able to switch those tokens around...

PS one night ultimate werewolf cards can be sleeved with coloured backed card sleeves. If any become marked, just put on a new sleeve. Works great...
So just take them out of your pockets/take the paper off of the tokens when they are switched around.
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Mark Turner
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RedSnowCastle wrote:
MrMT wrote:
RedSnowCastle wrote:
This is a problem with many hidden identity games. For example, much as I love One Night Ultimate Werewolf, the hidden identity cards are easily marked and identifiable (even when they are sleeved).

My best advice is that if it becomes too much of a problem then just keep your hidden identity tokens in your pockets, or covered over with some paper.


Which would work, except that game relies on being able to switch those tokens around...

PS one night ultimate werewolf cards can be sleeved with coloured backed card sleeves. If any become marked, just put on a new sleeve. Works great...
So just take them out of your pockets/take the paper off of the tokens when they are switched around.


Yes... but you will still know if your token was switched if you see a dot before replacing in pocket.

I can imagine a convoluted system of paper on paper off all tokens, but at that point, why have these fancy tokens at all?

Here's what I don't get - when I was a kid and played stratego and generals, games companies were entirely capable of creating functional hidden identity tokens.

For some reason this art has been entirely lost, and we see dozens of hidden identity games who completely fail to create a token which performs this one simple task.
 
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Alias Saila
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MrMT wrote:
RedSnowCastle wrote:
MrMT wrote:
RedSnowCastle wrote:
This is a problem with many hidden identity games. For example, much as I love One Night Ultimate Werewolf, the hidden identity cards are easily marked and identifiable (even when they are sleeved).

My best advice is that if it becomes too much of a problem then just keep your hidden identity tokens in your pockets, or covered over with some paper.


Which would work, except that game relies on being able to switch those tokens around...

PS one night ultimate werewolf cards can be sleeved with coloured backed card sleeves. If any become marked, just put on a new sleeve. Works great...
So just take them out of your pockets/take the paper off of the tokens when they are switched around.


Yes... but you will still know if your token was switched if you see a dot before replacing in pocket.

I can imagine a convoluted system of paper on paper off all tokens, but at that point, why have these fancy tokens at all?

Here's what I don't get - when I was a kid and played stratego and generals, games companies were entirely capable of creating functional hidden identity tokens.

For some reason this art has been entirely lost, and we see dozens of hidden identity games who completely fail to create a token which performs this one simple task.
You can use both hands to cover the front and back of the token as you switch it so that nobody sees any markings on the token.

To be honest with you, my group doesn't really have a problem with marked tokens in this game, although I understand that can be a massive frustration for some people.
 
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Mark Turner
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RedSnowCastle wrote:
You can use both hands to cover the front and back of the token as you switch it so that nobody sees any markings on the token.

To be honest with you, my group doesn't really have a problem with marked tokens in this game, although I understand that can be a massive frustration for some people.


OK - but re switching, part of the point is noone knows which token is switched...

As for no problem with marked tokens, I don't understand. If you know who the other players are because their tokens are marked, where is the game?
 
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Russ Williams
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MrMT wrote:
As for no problem with marked tokens, I don't understand. If you know who the other players are because their tokens are marked, where is the game?


You said "On close inspection, some have tiny little dots." Perhaps not everyone closely inspects the markers.
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MrMT wrote:


Here's what I don't get - when I was a kid and played stratego and generals, games companies were entirely capable of creating functional hidden identity tokens.

For some reason this art has been entirely lost, and we see dozens of hidden identity games who completely fail to create a token which performs this one simple task.


Is it possible instead that you as a child were less attuned to small identifying imperfections in pieces?
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Mark Turner
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NateStraight wrote:
MrMT wrote:


Here's what I don't get - when I was a kid and played stratego and generals, games companies were entirely capable of creating functional hidden identity tokens.

For some reason this art has been entirely lost, and we see dozens of hidden identity games who completely fail to create a token which performs this one simple task.


Is it possible instead that you as a child were less attuned to small identifying imperfections in pieces?


That may well be true!
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Mark Turner
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russ wrote:
MrMT wrote:
As for no problem with marked tokens, I don't understand. If you know who the other players are because their tokens are marked, where is the game?


You said "On close inspection, some have tiny little dots." Perhaps not everyone closely inspects the markers.


True. But the marks are quite visible from across the table, and once seen cannot be unseen. I may have been overly generous in calling them almost imperceptible. They are in clear contrast to the otherwise clean white backing. I can post photos if that helps bolster my case that they unhide what should be hidden.
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Russ Williams
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Perhaps judicious application of a black permanent ink marker would be an easy, if inelegant, solution.
 
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Mark Turner
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russ wrote:
Perhaps judicious application of a black permanent ink marker would be an easy, if inelegant, solution. :)


Wouldn't be the first time I pulled out a black marker to do something with my game pieces.

I'm mostly tempted to find some dark backed sleeves, but the shape is awkward, and it's a shame to lose those otherwise beautiful tokens.
 
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Paul Newsham
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MrMT wrote:
True. But the marks are quite visible from across the table, and once seen cannot be unseen. I may have been overly generous in calling them almost imperceptible. They are in clear contrast to the otherwise clean white backing. I can post photos if that helps bolster my case that they unhide what should be hidden.


I was considering buying this game, so those photos would be appreciated
 
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Alias Saila
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Tarnop wrote:
MrMT wrote:
True. But the marks are quite visible from across the table, and once seen cannot be unseen. I may have been overly generous in calling them almost imperceptible. They are in clear contrast to the otherwise clean white backing. I can post photos if that helps bolster my case that they unhide what should be hidden.


I was considering buying this game, so those photos would be appreciated

I've got a picture of two of my marked role tokens to hand.

The left token has a small ink dot on it just above the centre of the token. The right token has an extremely faint green ring around the outside of it.


When playing the game these markings are not visible without careful examination of the role counters (ie. bringing the back of the token right up to your eye). It did not affect play for me or my group.
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Mark Turner
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Or you could just, you know, wash them?

I've played dozens of Secrets games, my tokens are nowhere close to being perfect, noone ever noticed or looked for these differences.
 
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Mark Turner
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rattkin wrote:
Or you could just, you know, wash them?

I've played dozens of Secrets games, my tokens are nowhere close to being perfect, noone ever noticed or looked for these differences.


If washing worked that would be awesome... the imperfections seem baked in.

That said, I do think it's a function of lighting.

I had a look in our games store, and what with the more diffuse and flickering neon lighting, it was far less noticeable.

Don't get me wrong here - I am not looking to knock this per se, I am looking for a solution to a game that demands identities be hidden.
 
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Russ Williams
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FWIW neither of those 2 different photos shows anything that would be a problem for me. I think that I would not see the tiny distinguishing features being discussed without consciously carefully looking for them at a close distance.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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I've washed mine, just out of curiosity, and whatever minor details I could see beforehand, they're definitely gone now.
 
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Mark Turner
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russ wrote:
FWIW neither of those 2 different photos shows anything that would be a problem for me. I think that I would not see the tiny distinguishing features being discussed without consciously carefully looking for them at a close distance.


And you may well be right for most people.

But once you see it, it cannot be unseen...

Like a blown pixel or couple of pixels on a screen. It's just there.
 
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rattkin wrote:
I've washed mine, just out of curiosity, and whatever minor details I could see beforehand, they're definitely gone now.


Then I will certainly try this; I hadn't imagined this, so thanks for the tip.
 
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Mark Turner
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MrMT wrote:
rattkin wrote:
I've washed mine, just out of curiosity, and whatever minor details I could see beforehand, they're definitely gone now.


Then I will certainly try this; I hadn't imagined this, so thanks for the tip.


Sadly this didn't work.

I scrubbed and scrubbed with a wire scouring pad, and nothing.

The marks remained.
 
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James Clarke
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Dim the lights. I can't think of any other practical suggestion.

Luckily this will only be seen as a lighthearted party game in my household, which will only get a handful of plays a year. Dot recognition cheating is therefore unlikely to be a problem for us.

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Mark Turner
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Highland Cow wrote:

Dim the lights. I can't think of any other practical suggestion.

Luckily this will only be seen as a lighthearted party game in my household, which will only get a handful of plays a year. Dot recognition cheating is therefore unlikely to be a problem for us.



Agreed, but its not about remembering what the dots are, or even seeing them from across the table.

It's about knowing that the dot that was in front of you no longer is, so you were the person who's chip was swapped...
 
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