Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
6 Posts

Guards of Atlantis: Tabletop MOBA» Forums » General

Subject: Variability of Death Penalty is Killing it for us rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's some excellent stuff going on here, but also some qualities to the game which is making it difficult for my group. The main issue causing us fits is player death and the possible extended downtime.

In a larger group game, if you are a weaker support character such as Sabine and get killed early in the round, you will be watching and not participating for a possibly long time.

I'm curious why the penalty of death is not returning until the following round instead of simply being out of the game for X number of turns (such as 3)? If you get caught in a bad spot and die before you get to go in turn 1, you lose 5 turns which is brutal.

The solution of course is not get caught in a bad spot, but that doesn't help fix poor experiences and the difficulty that presents.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arty N.
Latvia
Riga
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
charlest wrote:
There's some excellent stuff going on here, but also some qualities to the game which is making it difficult for my group. The main issue causing us fits is player death and the possible extended downtime.

In a larger group game, if you are a weaker support character such as Sabine and get killed early in the round, you will be watching and not participating for a possibly long time.

One thing to remember here is that the earlier it is in the round, the harder it is to secure a kill. At this point the intended target has a large selection of cards to defend/dodge, including the high-defense value red card.
If we take Sabine as an example, her red card is enough to defend from any starting attack in the game, including the most powerful.
Playing your yellow card and using it to move allows you to dodge virtually any high-strength attack.

As players become accustomed with how death works and how painful it is, 90% of all kills will occur on turn 3-4 (4th is considerably more often).

charlest wrote:

I'm curious why the penalty of death is not returning until the following round instead of simply being out of the game for X number of turns (such as 3)? If you get caught in a bad spot and die before you get to go in turn 1, you lose 5 turns which is brutal.

The solution of course is not get caught in a bad spot, but that doesn't help fix poor experiences and the difficulty that presents.

Harsh death penalty is an unfortunate necessity. Take it out, and the game turns into minion-killing race.
With death working as it is, it makes going for a kill a viable strategy to ensure you can push a lane. Especially against a character like Sabine who has ways to clear-out minions extremely quickly.

I understand the frustration this must be causing during first plays of course. And that it causes some players to hate the game. But I don't see how it can be done differently, without breaking the dynamic of the game. I've tried.

As for death cool down being a set number of turns, if you'll share your version of it, we can discuss it.
6 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the reply!

We had a specific instance that really turned a player off of the game where they (Sabine) was in range of the Barbarian's move and attack tier II card. Their highest defense couldn't stop it and they died in the very first action, causing them to sit out five turns with nothing to do.

I was curious if you could simply have people sit out 3 turns maybe? Or even 2 if death typically occurs on the 4th turn anyway.

How this could be accomplished is that when you die, you immediately fill in the next 2 turn slots on your player board with a face-down card (you can turn it slightly askew - tap it - to help visually identify you won't actually act). Then you can play an actual card and get back into the action on the third turn after your death. This way, if you die on turn 1 you can act again on turn 4. Die on turn 2, then you can act again on turn 1 next round.

I'm not positing that the game is broken or that this fix is needed. I certainly don't have a thorough understanding of the game after a single play. I guess I'm wondering why specifically start a player on turn 2 of the following round instead of just delaying them a set number of actions?

It seems like it would accomplish roughly the same thing with less downtime/skipping of turns.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arty N.
Latvia
Riga
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
charlest wrote:
Thanks for the reply!
We had a specific instance that really turned a player off of the game where they (Sabine) was in range of the Barbarian's move and attack tier II card. Their highest defense couldn't stop it and they died in the very first action, causing them to sit out five turns with nothing to do.

This is a situation which can happen with a given player only once Barbarian has very low initiative. And for his attack to connect he must make that move of two spaces.
In fact, the only way for Sabine to actually die from this is playing a green card (or hold).
This, of course, requires a player to know the game. Which is intended and I see it as core part of MOBA experience.

charlest wrote:

I was curious if you could simply have people sit out 3 turns maybe? Or even 2 if death typically occurs on the 4th turn anyway.

How would you handle which cards they will have when they respawn?
Usually it takes 2-3 attacks to take down a character. That is 3 minions not killed. The death penalty (especially the locked red card) is there to balance it out.

charlest wrote:

How this could be accomplished is that when you die, you immediately fill in the next 2 turn slots on your player board with a face-down card (you can turn it slightly askew - tap it - to help visually identify you won't actually act). Then you can play an actual card and get back into the action on the third turn after your death. This way, if you die on turn 1 you can act again on turn 4. Die on turn 2, then you can act again on turn 1 next round.

Problem here is that I need to ensure that you lose that powerful attack on respawn. If it happens within the same round, it would require a relatively complex order of how you organize your cards. And what if that card was already used?

charlest wrote:

I'm not positing that the game is broken or that this fix is needed. I certainly don't have a thorough understanding of the game after a single play. I guess I'm wondering why specifically start a player on turn 2 of the following round instead of just delaying them a set number of actions?

To make sure that the re-spawning player re-spawns without his powerful attack. Otherwise a player like Sabine would use her red card turn one, kill two minions, then die and respawn with her red card again, maintaining the minion advantage.

charlest wrote:

It seems like it would accomplish roughly the same thing with less downtime/skipping of turns.

From my observation turn 1-2 kills are an extremely rare occurrence unless everybody is playing for the first time.

What I can try to do is to add some sort of "practice mode" where there will be instant respawn without any penalty and recommend to use it for the first 3 games or so. It will result in a minion rush (and overpower some characters) though. I've tried it before.
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Theel
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting and thoughtful responses, appreciate it.

I've likely got a player who won't play this again, but I'll give it a few more plays with others. It's tricky to balance the delicate strategy associated with positioning this game while not being too punishing. Erring on the side of depth over accessibility is praise-worthy, just hoping too many of my extended group don't get turned off by poor decisions. Thanks again.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arty N.
Latvia
Riga
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
charlest wrote:
Interesting and thoughtful responses, appreciate it.

Thank you. This is why I`m hanging out on BGG

charlest wrote:

I've likely got a player who won't play this again, but I'll give it a few more plays with others.

I completely understand. This game can be ruthless and it definitely isn't for everyone.

charlest wrote:

It's tricky to balance the delicate strategy associated with positioning this game while not being too punishing. Erring on the side of depth over accessibility is praise-worthy, just hoping too many of my extended group don't get turned off by poor decisions. Thanks again.

I think correct expectation is key here.
Let them know that dying is just as punishing as it is inevitable
But as one learns the game, it will all make sense and accidental early deaths will be much rarer occurrence.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.