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Subject: A simple [POLL] about Strategy & Thematic Games rss

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mortego
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Poll
1. Which are you likely to choose to play? (multiple choices - select both choices if 'it depends' or you simply enjoy both)
Strategy Games
Thematic Games
2. Of the two types of games in this thread, do you know which ones are more frequently played in your collection? (choose one)
Strategy Games
Thematic Games
3. Do you have any negative feelings towards either type of game? (Choose one)
No negative feelings for either type
No negative feelings for Thematic Games but somewhat for Strategy Games
No negative feelings for Strategy Games but somewhat for Thematic Games
Yes, I have negative feelings for both types but that doesn't mean I don't like to play either type
4. Of the two types of games talked about in this thread, if any, which type of game pulled you into the activity? (Choose one & maybe make a comment in the comment section about which type)
A Strategy Game
A Thematic Game
Neither
      145 answers
Poll created by killerjoe1962
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Jade Knight
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It strikes me that most games (including most strategy games) are thematic, but the reverse is not at all true.
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L B
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I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive, which this poll implies.
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mortego
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The Jade Knight wrote:
It strikes me that most games (including most strategy games) are thematic, but the reverse is not at all true.


Yup, that's the current debate but in this casual poll I assume that each person taking it uses their own definition of what is mostly a Strategy Game & what is mostly a Thematic Game.
 
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Cris Whetstone
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There is a problem in that BGG defines strategy games in a way that was never used prior to it's existence. The definitions and listings here make it seem as though Euros have a monopoly on strategy. That was never true and in fact, most popular Euros are far more about tactics and optimization than they are about strategy.
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mortego
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WetRock wrote:
There is a problem in that BGG defines strategy games in a way that was never used prior to it's existence. The definitions and listings here make it seem as though Euros have a monopoly on strategy. That was never true and in fact, most popular Euros are far more about tactics and optimization than they are about strategy.


I agree that the nuances of this discussion can be quite deep with sparse consensus, I wanted to pull back on the microscope and use the terms in the most basic & general sense. I would assume that the adults who took the poll knew exactly what the question was asking and the poll assumes that the poll taker uses their own definition, as it relates to them, as to what they consider a strategy game and what they consider to be a thematic game, again, in the most general sense of the meanings.

There's already a discussion about this topic currently in the General Forums. This is just a simple poll that can easily be NOT taken.

 
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Shaun Morris
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Question 1: I have no preference either way. My group tends to gravitate more toward thematic games (Age of Conan: The Strategy Board Game, King of Tokyo, Castle Panic, Age of Gods etc.) than strategy games but they aren't opposed to either. When I play solo I gravitate more toward strategy games (Le Havre, Agricola, etc.).

Question 2: Definitely the thematic games.

Question 3: No negative feelings either way.

Question 4: Firefly: The Game is the game that sunk it's hooks into me and dragged me down the rabbit hole of hobby games.
 
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Cris Whetstone
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
WetRock wrote:
There is a problem in that BGG defines strategy games in a way that was never used prior to it's existence. The definitions and listings here make it seem as though Euros have a monopoly on strategy. That was never true and in fact, most popular Euros are far more about tactics and optimization than they are about strategy.


I agree that the nuances of this discussion can be quite deep with sparse consensus, I wanted to pull back on the microscope and use the terms in the most basic & general sense. I would assume that the adults who took the poll knew exactly what the question was asking and the poll assumes that the poll taker uses their own definition, as it relates to them, as to what they consider a strategy game and what they consider to be a thematic game, again, in the most general sense of the meanings.

There's already a discussion about this topic currently in the General Forums. This is just a simple poll that can easily be NOT taken.



Of course.

But in presenting the poll the way you do it is in a sense saying that the BGG defined types are the standard. It is stating that there is a consensus or standard definition of sorts. I'm just pointing out that that is bogus.
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Elankat wrote:
I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive, which this poll implies.
You are aware that with the first question, you are allowed to choose both entries since it's a checkbox, as opposed to a radio box? The other 2 questions are worded like "the most", to state that only 1 answer is allowed.
 
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mortego
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WetRock wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
WetRock wrote:
There is a problem in that BGG defines strategy games in a way that was never used prior to it's existence. The definitions and listings here make it seem as though Euros have a monopoly on strategy. That was never true and in fact, most popular Euros are far more about tactics and optimization than they are about strategy.


I agree that the nuances of this discussion can be quite deep with sparse consensus, I wanted to pull back on the microscope and use the terms in the most basic & general sense. I would assume that the adults who took the poll knew exactly what the question was asking and the poll assumes that the poll taker uses their own definition, as it relates to them, as to what they consider a strategy game and what they consider to be a thematic game, again, in the most general sense of the meanings.

There's already a discussion about this topic currently in the General Forums. This is just a simple poll that can easily be NOT taken.



Of course.

But in presenting the poll the way you do it is in a sense saying that the BGG defined types are the standard. It is stating that there is a consensus or standard definition of sorts. I'm just pointing out that that is bogus.


Ah, I see, well I actually meant for poll takers to use their own definition of what is a Strategy Game and what is a Thematic Game.

I actually never mentioned BGG's definitions (not sure where to find them either) unless you're referring to the members, collectively, as BGG.

This conversation will never end, there will always be some folks who just think of games like Castles of Burgundy or Dominion as strategy based games and Memoir '44 & Eldritch Horror as thematic based games and yes, I suppose the argument could be made that all four of these games are both strategy & thematic.....*shrugs*

Based on the number of people who took the poll it looks like they knew exactly what the questions being asked meant. A bad poll, I would think, would result in few answers, I know, I've made a few clunkers myself, LOL!
 
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Under the paving stones, the beach
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WetRock wrote:
There is a problem in that BGG defines strategy games in a way that was never used prior to it's existence. The definitions and listings here make it seem as though Euros have a monopoly on strategy. That was never true and in fact, most popular Euros are far more about tactics and optimization than they are about strategy.


There's a similar term with the fact BGG insists on using "Thematic" to try and pander to the minority of advertisers people who have an issue with the word "Ameritrash".

Much like using "strategy" instead of "Euros" makes the term so broad to be meaningless.

How are wargames not both thematic and strategic?

And this is why we end up with Smash Up listed as strategic, yet Smash Up: Science Fiction Double Feature is listed as thematic.

Why this matters in the context of this thread, from a personal point of view, is that I consider the BGG terms to be useless and would rather not do anything that might help them become more widely used.
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mortego
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AMERITRASH GAMES ROCK!


(but I also really like Euros...)
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I love both types of games. In fact I find I love almost all games. For a long time I thought I hated Dexterity games, but Beasts of Balance and Meeple Circus have even pulled me into those.

I definitely know I have a preference for Strategic games though. Most of my favorite games are over 2 hours and involve either a lot of positioning or a lot of engine development.

I was generally into gaming when my friend got me Boss Monster (a game I've more or less fallen away from entirely) but I got way into gaming when my wife got me Caverna. My collection exploded after that and shows no signs of stopping. Space almost stopped me, but then I made room.

Edit: There seems to be a distinction in the thread between optimization, tactics, strategy, etc. I'd lump those all into the same pile, personally.
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John McD
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I have no idea what strategic or thematic mean here. Or how other people are likely to have understood the question.
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ackmondual wrote:
Elankat wrote:
I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive, which this poll implies.
You are aware that with the first question, you are allowed to choose both entries since it's a checkbox, as opposed to a radio box? The other 2 questions are worded like "the most", to state that only 1 answer is allowed.


Yes. I am actually capable of reading and if we want to get into semantics, the second question states:

"Of the two types of games in this thread" which implies that they are separate categories of games. However, games that are both thematic and strategic abound. Similarly, question three asks about "either type of game," which also implies mutual exclusion, and the final question "of the two types."

So again, my statement stands. I fail to see how theme and strategy can be separate game types that are mutually exclusive, requiring a choice of one over the other.
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M Smith
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As a fan of the early Wargames this was a question you could trip on.
Wargames are inherently strategic and tactical in there setup so this would have been the obvious vote.
But an individual gamers choice of wargame is based on the theatre of war or time in history. I went for the thematic approach.
That was easy .
But I just looked at the strategy top ten and my brain melted, it oozes theme like ghostbuster ectoplasm.

So if there were two similar games in player count, tablespace, time per player etc.. I would chose the thematic one over the strategic.
See it was easy ,really glad it was a simple poll.

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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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I think the poll might have worked better if the options were:

1) Games that privilege or foreground their theme

and

2) Games that privilege or foreground their mechanichs
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mortego
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Elankat wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Elankat wrote:
I fail to see how they are mutually exclusive, which this poll implies.
You are aware that with the first question, you are allowed to choose both entries since it's a checkbox, as opposed to a radio box? The other 2 questions are worded like "the most", to state that only 1 answer is allowed.


Yes. I am actually capable of reading and if we want to get into semantics, the second question states:

"Of the two types of games in this thread" which implies that they are separate categories of games. However, games that are both thematic and strategic abound. Similarly, question three asks about "either type of game," which also implies mutual exclusion, and the final question "of the two types."

So again, my statement stands. I fail to see how theme and strategy can be separate game types that are mutually exclusive, requiring a choice of one over the other.


If you mean that games are neither all Thematic or all Strategic then I agree and in a deep discussion over the finer points of the matter there's plenty to support the idea that games cannot simply be completely one or the other.

....except, the general sense of those terms are understood and somewhat accepted otherwise the poll would have zero entries because those terms would simply not be true.
 
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Cris Whetstone
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
Based on the number of people who took the poll it looks like they knew exactly what the questions being asked meant.

killerjoe1962 wrote:
....except, the general sense of those terms are understood and somewhat accepted otherwise the poll would have zero entries because those terms would simply not be true.



Since you've said this twice now, do you really think the way people answer internet polls is they first consider the terms carefully and then decide whether or not to actually answer the poll? I've got news for you...
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mortego
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well, I have no problem with the poll and it's questions so I don't really care that much about it but it seems some do.....& yes, I totaly "get" what you're saying.
laugh
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
....except, the general sense of those terms are understood and somewhat accepted otherwise the poll would have zero entries because those terms would simply not be true.
I interpreted you to be using them the way BGG does... as stand-ins for Eurogame and Ameritrash. I would have preferred that you use Eurogame and Ameritrash though, because invariably some people won't understand that's what you mean and will interpret the words literally. So your poll results will be an odd mixture of responses, in which different people will consider the same games to fall into different categories depending on whether they're taking the literal meaning of 'strategic' and "thematic' or the artificial (and often false) equivalence to Eurogame and Ameritrash.

Essentially, you've muddied the waters and created a poll that is meaningless, as you're using categorical definitions that are ambiguous.

(The benefit of Eurogame and Ameritrash is that games divide between those categories much more clearly than they would between the literal 'strategic' and 'thematic'. Yes, there are hybrid games and edge cases, but not nearly as many as there are with the strategic/thematic, which aren't necessarily distinct categories at all)
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mortego
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Thunkd wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
....except, the general sense of those terms are understood and somewhat accepted otherwise the poll would have zero entries because those terms would simply not be true.
I interpreted you to be using them the way BGG does... as stand-ins for Eurogame and Ameritrash. I would have preferred that you use Eurogame and Ameritrash though, because invariably some people won't understand that's what you mean and will interpret the words literally. So your poll results will be an odd mixture of responses, in which different people will consider the same games to fall into different categories depending on whether they're taking the literal meaning of 'strategic' and "thematic' or the artificial (and often false) equivalence to Eurogame and Ameritrash.

Essentially, you've muddied the waters and created a poll that is meaningless, as you're using categorical definitions that are ambiguous.

(The benefit of Eurogame and Ameritrash is that games divide between those categories much more clearly than they would between the literal 'strategic' and 'thematic'. Yes, there are hybrid games and edge cases, but not nearly as many as there are with the strategic/thematic, which aren't necessarily distinct categories at all)


noted
 
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Thunkd wrote:
killerjoe1962 wrote:
....except, the general sense of those terms are understood and somewhat accepted otherwise the poll would have zero entries because those terms would simply not be true.
I interpreted you to be using them the way BGG does... as stand-ins for Eurogame and Ameritrash. I would have preferred that you use Eurogame and Ameritrash though, because invariably some people won't understand that's what you mean and will interpret the words literally. So your poll results will be an odd mixture of responses, in which different people will consider the same games to fall into different categories depending on whether they're taking the literal meaning of 'strategic' and "thematic' or the artificial (and often false) equivalence to Eurogame and Ameritrash.


Or another possibility is that they will interpret as with BGG ranked categories where there is a "Thematic" and a "Strategic" list and there is a game like Pandemic Legacy that currently occupies the top spot in both.

I agree with Thunkd. If the intention of the poll was to distinguish between Euros and AT games, then using those terms would have made it more clear.
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If I was building a game like I build a character in a videogame, and I had to allocate 100 attribute points between theme and strategy, I would allocate like 97 points to strategy.
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