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Subject: Blue cards effect and actions rss

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Maximilian Berbechelov
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When you play blue cards - can anyone spend actions to use them or are they exclusively yours? A group I saw playing was using the blue cards as common for the whole table so everyone could spend action to claim the card for that generation.

Same goes for effect blue cards - they affect anyone... Is that correct way of playing or are they only yours and their effects and/or actions affect only you?
 
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Chris Berry
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umm... I think your cards are only suppose to be available to you...
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Joe Rakstad
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Don't have the rule book right here, but I've always played it as they're your own.
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Ian Klinck
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The cards you play are yours. Other people can't use them.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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It's easy to show that they only apply to the person who paid for them by pulling put the card that says that other players cannot remove your plants/animals/microbes. It makes no sense if it applied across the board.
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Tiago Soares
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Their actions or effects are only available to you and actions are only usable once per generation.
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Mil Myman
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Wow, I've never seen that mistake made before. Sort of a Caylus (or Ora & Labora) variation of TfM. Might make an interesting variant, but it would need some additional rules - like you have to pay MC or other resources to the owner of the card to use it.
 
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Andi Hub
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This would make the blue cards so weak (at least some of them) and nobody would pay for them. This would be such an obvious that any experienced player would notice that there is something wrong. Granted, on first play of the game you cannot spot unbalances that easily, but during your second play you should notice something.
 
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Maximilian Berbechelov
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I had no idea about the rules when I was watching the people playing and the cards that are all-available made an impression on me. So yesterday I sat to play my copy and was really baffled how and where it says we should all use them.

The rulebook is not enough detailed IMO. A lot of things are not explained or I didn't read them correctly ...
 
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Andi Hub
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OurBG wrote:
I had no idea about the rules when I was watching the people playing and the cards that are all-available made an impression on me. So yesterday I sat to play my copy and was really baffled how and where it says we should all use them.

The rulebook is not enough detailed IMO. A lot of things are not explained or I didn't read them correctly ...

I actually meant the people playing the game should have recognized this, not you as a watcher.

In case you have not played yet, please avoid a common mistake: You can actually do as many actions as you want per generation. The restriction of maximum 2 action is about how many actions you can make before other players can do actions.
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Maximilian Berbechelov
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ringo84 wrote:
OurBG wrote:
I had no idea about the rules when I was watching the people playing and the cards that are all-available made an impression on me. So yesterday I sat to play my copy and was really baffled how and where it says we should all use them.

The rulebook is not enough detailed IMO. A lot of things are not explained or I didn't read them correctly ...

I actually meant the people playing the game should have recognized this, not you as a watcher.

In case you have not played yet, please avoid a common mistake: You can actually do as many actions as you want per generation. The restriction of maximum 2 action is about how many actions you can make before other players can do actions.


That we did correctly. Those are some things I was not sure about:

1. When all the players pass in a turn then the last one can do infinite number of actions? This makes sense by the rules but is so powerful. Last player can do so much more actions. Once you get more production others pass you can even put a city with greens and stuff around it for infinite actions, of course while you still have resources.

2. Since the discounts are cumulative the same player had 0 cost on most of his cards and a lot of production caused by that, so when he was the last man standing for a generation he could play shitton of cards for free and then use his ton of resources for other stuff.

3. When we finished the game he built so many things on our last round. After the oxygen is maxed out can you put more forests via the "Standard projects"? (We played with "yes")

4. Can you use standard projects more than once per generation? What about per turn? (We played with "Yes").

5. Are the special tiles providing you something? Do they count as cities? If not, why do you put a player marker on it - is it just for the landlord achievement?

6. And furthermore - are the outside of Mars cities good for anything except the Landlord achievement?

Otherwise even tho I lost yesterday I liked the game a lot. It was my second game and it wont be my favorite but surely one of the most played ones for now.
 
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brian hunt
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1. yes, an infinite amount of turns is unlikely unless somehow someone found some loop within the cards that would allow this. Avg money gained is 30-40 with cards costing most often 10-30, not including the cards you purchase which turns to only being able to play 2-3 cards and maybe a few blue card actions. Yes I have been able to do a lot more actions on a generation than some but nothing game breaking.

2. Id like to see this card combo, haven't ran into it, maybe a minor discount but rarely free cards.

3-4. not sure on these two at the moment.

5. Not really

6. Yes just cities.
 
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Sam Carroll
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OurBG wrote:
1. When all the players pass in a turn then the last one can do infinite number of actions? This makes sense by the rules but is so powerful. Last player can do so much more actions. Once you get more production others pass you can even put a city with greens and stuff around it for infinite actions, of course while you still have resources.


"While you still have resources" is the part that limits you. It's rare for one player to be able to go for a long time after others have passed, unless it's pretty weak actions: "I'll add a microbe to this card . . . then an animal to this card . . ."

Quote:
2. Since the discounts are cumulative the same player had 0 cost on most of his cards and a lot of production caused by that, so when he was the last man standing for a generation he could play shitton of cards for free and then use his ton of resources for other stuff.


There are three "global discount" cards: Research Outpost gives you -1 cost on all future cards, Earth Catapult and Antigravity Tech give you -2. All three are pretty expensive (or in the case of Antigrav, have very high requirements). If you somehow manage to build all three (which I've never seen), that's a -5 to all cards - but there aren't many cards of cost 5 or less! I wonder if there was a mistake here.

Space cards have several additional discounts available; you can get -6 to all space cards (plus the -5 to all cards, I suppose), but space cards tend to be very expensive; mostly 20 or higher.

Quote:
3. When we finished the game he built so many things on our last round. After the oxygen is maxed out can you put more forests via the "Standard projects"? (We played with "yes")


Yes, but they don't increase your TR anymore, though they do score 1 pt each in final scoring, and of course help cities.

Quote:
4. Can you use standard projects more than once per generation? What about per turn? (We played with "Yes").


Yes and yes. Blue card actions, however, may only be used once per generation.

Quote:
5. Are the special tiles providing you something? Do they count as cities? If not, why do you put a player marker on it - is it just for the landlord achievement?


They aren't cities, but they do count for landlord as well as for placing greeneries and a few cards (Mining Area) that require you to put stuff next to tiles you already own.

Quote:
6. And furthermore - are the outside of Mars cities good for anything except the Landlord achievement?


Other than the large quantity of points on their cards, not really. They will trigger Rovers, count for Energy Savings, etc., but not count for Martian Rails or Zeppelins, etc.
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Russell Martin
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OurBG wrote:
ringo84 wrote:
OurBG wrote:
I had no idea about the rules when I was watching the people playing and the cards that are all-available made an impression on me. So yesterday I sat to play my copy and was really baffled how and where it says we should all use them.

The rulebook is not enough detailed IMO. A lot of things are not explained or I didn't read them correctly ...

I actually meant the people playing the game should have recognized this, not you as a watcher.

In case you have not played yet, please avoid a common mistake: You can actually do as many actions as you want per generation. The restriction of maximum 2 action is about how many actions you can make before other players can do actions.


That we did correctly. Those are some things I was not sure about:

1. When all the players pass in a turn then the last one can do infinite number of actions? This makes sense by the rules but is so powerful. Last player can do so much more actions. Once you get more production others pass you can even put a city with greens and stuff around it for infinite actions, of course while you still have resources.

2. Since the discounts are cumulative the same player had 0 cost on most of his cards and a lot of production caused by that, so when he was the last man standing for a generation he could play shitton of cards for free and then use his ton of resources for other stuff.

3. When we finished the game he built so many things on our last round. After the oxygen is maxed out can you put more forests via the "Standard projects"? (We played with "yes")

4. Can you use standard projects more than once per generation? What about per turn? (We played with "Yes").

5. Are the special tiles providing you something? Do they count as cities? If not, why do you put a player marker on it - is it just for the landlord achievement?

6. And furthermore - are the outside of Mars cities good for anything except the Landlord achievement?

Otherwise even tho I lost yesterday I liked the game a lot. It was my second game and it wont be my favorite but surely one of the most played ones for now.


(3) Yes, but you won't get a bump in your Terraforming Rating since you're not raising the oxygen level. But you'll obviously still score them at the end of game for points and city adjacencies as normal..

(4) Yes, you can use the standard projects more than once per generation, or per turn.
 
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Andi Hub
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3. Yes, you can build more greenery after oxygen is maxed out, either with cards, plants or the standard projects.

4. Yes, you can do multiple standard projects per generation and up to two per turn. If I am not mistaken, only the use of each blue card (edit)action is restricted (to once per generation).

Edit: ninja
 
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Maximilian Berbechelov
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Well he had exactly -5 discounts, plus a card that returns him 3MC every time he plays a space event. Which means that space events were -8. That paired with some other economy cards...

Close to the end he had more than 40 TR and 20-something MC production.

Which means that if one generation he doesn't spend a lot he might start a generation with close to 100, which means that when we pass he can build cities and forests around the map via standards, let alone if he has a card for building something.

I will take notes of the cards and combos next time we play.

All of the rules you guys said we played correctly apparently.
 
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brian hunt
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OurBG wrote:
Well he had exactly -5 discounts, plus a card that returns him 3MC every time he plays a space event. Which means that space events were -8. That paired with some other economy cards...

Close to the end he had more than 40 TR and 20-something MC production.

Which means that if one generation he doesn't spend a lot he might start a generation with close to 100, which means that when we pass he can build cities and forests around the map via standards, let alone if he has a card for building something.

I will take notes of the cards and combos next time we play.

All of the rules you guys said we played correctly apparently.


My only concern is starting with 100 mc at the start of a generation, sounds very steep, unless someone has their productions maxed out in everything; which is pretty hard to do with most techs balancing each other out and saving all their resources till the end. 40-50 TR (which is very high) + 10 mc production is only 50-60mc, that is a lot of left over resources end game.
 
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Florian Ruckeisen
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OurBG wrote:
1. When all the players pass in a turn then the last one can do infinite number of actions?

Correct.

Quote:
This makes sense by the rules but is so powerful. Last player can do so much more actions.

Yeah, but actions aren't necessarily "worth" equally much. I might do only a single action, but it's a big, expensive card like Giant Ice Asteroid - someone else might do 5+ "small" actions in the same generation.

Tactically, it usually is beneficial to be the "last man going", so you can do all you have left to do uninterrupted by other players.
(Other times, of course, you want to do some things as quickly as you can - grab a milestone, convert plants to greenery before someone drops an asteroid card, play a card with maximum requirement before someone raises that parameter...)

Quote:
2. Since the discounts are cumulative the same player had 0 cost on most of his cards and a lot of production caused by that, so when he was the last man standing for a generation he could play shitton of cards for free and then use his ton of resources for other stuff.

Possible, yes. Although only cheaper cards can be played at literally no cost.

Tip: When someone is building up an enormous amount of discount effects, try to end the game by terraforming fast. The longer the game goes on, the better for the "discounter".

Quote:
3. After the oxygen is maxed out can you put more forests via the "Standard projects"? (We played with "yes")

Yes, you can still place greeneries with plants or with standard projects as before. You just don't receive a TR increase anymore if oxygen cannot be raised any further.

Quote:
4. Can you use standard projects more than once per generation? What about per turn? (We played with "Yes").

Yes, there is no limit on how often you can do standard projects per generation, or how often you use the 8 plants -> greenery and the 8 heat -> temperature increase conversions.

The only limited actions are the ones on blue cards; those you can only use once per card per generation.

Quote:
5. Are the special tiles providing you something? Do they count as cities? If not, why do you put a player marker on it - is it just for the landlord achievement?

Special tiles aren't cities; only cities are cities. (The Capital, however, is a city; it scores 1 VP per adjacent greenery regularly and 1 VP per adjacent ocean as per its own scoring rules.)

Special tiles do count towards the Landlord award, as do all your greeneries and cities. Any tile you place does, with the exception of oceans, which cannot be "owned".

Any tile you own (greenery, city, special) also influences your placement of greeneries: If possible, you must place new greeneries adjacent to any tile you own. Only if that's not possible (all legal spots blocked) or if you do not have any tile on Mars yet, you can place your first greenery on any non-reserved spot.

Quote:
6. And furthermore - are the outside of Mars cities good for anything except the Landlord achievement?

No; specifically, they cannot score for adjacent greeneries (obviously). They do, however give you a bunch of VP on their own (on their card).
They also count for cards like Pets or Energy Saving (but not, for example, for Martian Rails, because Martian Rails only deals with cities on Mars).

Quote:
Otherwise even tho I lost yesterday I liked the game a lot. It was my second game and it wont be my favorite but surely one of the most played ones for now.

Glad to hear it, one more Terraformer on board.
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Jeff Kahan
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Maximillian- With regards to #3- when you are saying "Finished" and "Last Round" are you referring to the round all parameters are met (last Generation) or the "After the production phase,players have one extra chance to convert plants into greenery tiles"

If you mean the "extra chance" part- then the answer is NO. only plants can become Greeneries.

Otherwise- Russel is spot on... also keep in mind you can still play CARDS to place Greeneries after Oxygen is maxed as well as Standard Projects.



 
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ronald fraigun
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OurBG wrote:
Well he had exactly -5 discounts, plus a card that returns him 3MC every time he plays a space event. Which means that space events were -8. That paired with some other economy cards...

Close to the end he had more than 40 TR and 20-something MC production.

Which means that if one generation he doesn't spend a lot he might start a generation with close to 100, which means that when we pass he can build cities and forests around the map via standards, let alone if he has a card for building something.

I will take notes of the cards and combos next time we play.

All of the rules you guys said we played correctly apparently.


Thats not quite true. With -5 discount the card is still only -5. You get 3 back after you pay for it so you must have the money first.
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Örjan Almén
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OurBG wrote:

Close to the end he had more than 40 TR and 20-something MC production.


Not more? Well, all about how the game evolves, but I've had 40 TR and 30+ M€ production several times. It's not common, but it happens that players get an total income of over 80 M€ the last rounds, especially with Insulation, Toll Station and some other cards that can give quite a lot M€ production with the right cards.
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Jeff Kahan
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xeonrf wrote:
OurBG wrote:
Well he had exactly -5 discounts, plus a card that returns him 3MC every time he plays a space event. Which means that space events were -8. That paired with some other economy cards...

Close to the end he had more than 40 TR and 20-something MC production.

Which means that if one generation he doesn't spend a lot he might start a generation with close to 100, which means that when we pass he can build cities and forests around the map via standards, let alone if he has a card for building something.

I will take notes of the cards and combos next time we play.

All of the rules you guys said we played correctly apparently.


Thats not quite true. With -5 discount the card is still only -5. You get 3 back after you pay for it so you must have the money first.


Yup... the difference between "discount" and "rebate" must remain clear. Of course, I was using IC and had the 3MC rebate card, the -3 Earth tag, and -2 space tag card the other night. Getting a 5MC rebate off event cards was sick (not to mention playing on Elysium with the Legends Milestone).. but I digress....whistle
 
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Alexander Einich
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1. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes & yes.
5. No (except their placement bonuses). They do not count as cities. You must put a player marker on them because they becomes a legal place for you to put greeneries adjacent to them (and because of the landlord award, as you wrote).
6. No, but they provide points (3 for Phobos Space Station on top of its Titanium production and your Jovian tag number for Ganymede Colony). In that sense, they are not that different from cities on Mars, which also only give points (plus what's on their cards of course).

Edit: Ninja'ed by ninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninjaninja ninjas. Slow as a snail I am.
 
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Ken Brooks
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I have already pondered such a variant:

Once the play has gone around the table twice within a generation, any blue card that has not been played on by its owner, may be played on by any ONE other player, who must pay 2 MC to the owner for the privilege.
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Michael
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OurBG wrote:
When you play blue cards - can anyone spend actions to use them or are they exclusively yours? A group I saw playing was using the blue cards as common for the whole table so everyone could spend action to claim the card for that generation.

Same goes for effect blue cards - they affect anyone... Is that correct way of playing or are they only yours and their effects and/or actions affect only you?


Designer's comment in another post (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1847706/can-virons-acti...):

Lord_Aethan wrote:
As with all cards, they affect only you unless specified otherwise. Usually, a red border around an icon is used to signify that other players are or can be affected. But in every case, it says so in the text.
 
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