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Subject: Where are the choices in this game? rss

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Seth Ladd
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My son and I played two games of MD (tutorial, and Quest 1). I left the experience feeling: "I didn't need to make a single choice." What did we miss? Is this truly an auto-pilot game?

There's no resource to deplete and/or save, there's no alternate routes to consider, there's no trade-offs to make. Walk, open door, kill monsters, repeat.

Unless I'm missing something, this game feels extremely boring. I'm curious if we missed a rule or something...
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Seems to me you are playing it right
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Paul Bauman
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The main decision space lies in the choice between keeping the game for the miniatures haul and/or fixing the rules yourself, or selling it and getting something that was designed more knowledgeably and play tested.

I like the minis and I'm curious to see what homebrew systems the community develops, so I'm keeping it. But it's kind of a shelf toad at the moment.
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Tim Chase
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Since there is a lot of randomized content in a quest, that may partially be due to luck (or lack there of). In my first play of the tutorial, a demon spawned on the second tile with plate armor. We only had a wizard and a paladin. We didn't think we could scratch the demon, so we considered luring him forward and going around (since there are 2 doors in the room).

However, we found the kite shield, so decided to tie up the demon with the paladin and hope to buy time, while the wizard teleported behind him to find some better weapons. The paladin didn't even attack, in order to avoid counter attacks.

After openning the next room, the wizard found some decent 2-handed weapons, but nothing worth putting down the shield for. Then a nightmare thing spawned near the entrance! With some goblin archers firing at the wizard, we realized that we could use he paladin's signature ability to escape his current zone and protect the wizard, if we positioned her 1 space away.

The archers fired, the paladin came to the rescue and then bolted out the door. The wizard got smashed, but we were able to revive her and teleport to safety.

So this was only 1 game, and others will likely play out very differently, but we had a blast!
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Max Maloney
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"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." -Jack Handey
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I'm not going to say this game is deep on choices, but I dislike hyperbole so I will dispute that there are truly none. I have only played mission 1, but there were distinct decision points regarding whether to stay and fight or push ahead faster, whether to explore extra rooms or ignore them, whether to beat down roaming monsters or chase ahead.

Those are mostly all tempo decisions; how fast are we going? So not a lot of different choices to make.

There were also smaller decisions such as who should use which items. And when we encountered the Unicorn and Observer roaming monsters (Kickstarter items), we did have to decide how best to address their abilities tactically. Those decisions did matter.

But I can see being bored. It wasn't especially in depth.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Honestly, the dumb aspect does not bother me, as I knew what I was getting into and I like throwing dice around nice minis without much purpose.

But they did go for "as uninspired as possible" with this one. There is a sense of discovery around the items and special abilities of the heroes and some of the monsters - that is fun.

And the initial dice rolls can be tense.

And... well...Not much else, really.
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Tim Chase
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One recommendation is to use heroes/classes with movement abilities, just to give yourselves more options.
 
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Jimmie Andersson
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Uuurrh! I let him in, uuuhh, was that not cool? Arrrarrh...
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I tried it 1 heroes and with 3 heroes, with one I felt like you really had no choice at all, just rolling some dice, with 3 heroes it was a lot better (who goes where and how to split up etc) but still very much lacking for this game to be any good (and choice is the most important issue with this game for me, but it has a lot more).
Minis are great though... maybe I should get into RPGs again
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Adam McCourt
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Well just in case it helps here are the house rules I'm planning on trying out when I'm done painting. Not saying they will work but I'll try anyway.

1) Transmutation costs an action.

2) Transmutation can only give you items up to 1 level above your current level. No more lvl 5 treasure at lvl 1 anymore!

3) Minions and mob bosses now only give micro xp when killed, even in standard mode. Agents are worth 2xp. Lesser RM worth 3 and greater RM worth 5 to all heroes.

4) Spiked shield only inflicts wounds at range zero melee when attacked.

5) Roaming Monsters are now divided by lvl to help stop really powerful RM hitting a party at low levels.

6) Rules for attaching treasure to monsters change. Mobs/agents/Lesser RM now draw once and if treasure can't be used by them then they don't get treasure and it is instead discarded. No more free lunches.

7) Monsters can use treasure they couldn't normally use if it makes sense theme wise. Examples: Troglodyte mob could use Lucky Charm or healing potion... where as a Giant Spider couldn't. In the case of healing potions I'd just add any damage markers to the potion card instead of the mob/agent/RM when they are damaged. Once potion has absorbed it's healing ability in damage it is discarded. Healing potions that heal all damage only absorb 5 damage instead.

8) Pick up action now only picks up 1 item instead of everything.

9) Heroes can only carry 5 total treasure/items in a "backpack". Items that are equipped don't count towards that limit. Example: 1 Amour, weapons (up to hand limit), 1 head piece, 2 rings, 1 pair of boots. Everything else counts against your backpack limit. Heroes can only have have 1 worn piece active at once (exception: 2 rings or two weapons).

10) Enemies drop carried treasure in their own space if attack at range. At range zero treasure is immediately picked up by attacking hero.

Well I'll leave it at that. Hope at least some of those suggestions help make MD a bit more challenging (many say it's too easy at higher levels) and increase decisions.
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Igor Persin
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Frohike wrote:
The main decision space lies in the choice between keeping the game for the miniatures haul and/or fixing the rules yourself, or selling it and getting something that was designed more knowledgeably and play tested.

I like the minis and I'm curious to see what homebrew systems the community develops, so I'm keeping it. But it's kind of a shelf toad at the moment.


I feel pitty for those who will end up buying this at retail...
 
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William Curtis
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With your healing Potion rules does this mean heroes never get that item?

Undead_Serpent wrote:
Well just in case it helps here are the house rules I'm planning on trying out when I'm done painting. Not saying they will work but I'll try anyway.

1) Transmutation costs an action.

2) Transmutation can only give you items up to 1 level above your current level. No more lvl 5 treasure at lvl 1 anymore!

3) Minions and mob bosses now only give micro xp when killed, even in standard mode. Agents are worth 2xp. Lesser RM worth 3 and greater RM worth 5 to all heroes.

4) Spiked shield only inflicts wounds at range zero melee when attacked.

5) Roaming Monsters are now divided by lvl to help stop really powerful RM hitting a party at low levels.

6) Rules for attaching treasure to monsters change. Mobs/agents/Lesser RM now draw once and if treasure can't be used by them then they don't get treasure and it is instead discarded. No more free lunches.

7) Monsters can use treasure they couldn't normally use if it makes sense theme wise. Examples: Troglodyte mob could use Lucky Charm or healing potion... where as a Giant Spider couldn't. In the case of healing potions I'd just add any damage markers to the potion card instead of the mob/agent/RM when they are damaged. Once potion has absorbed it's healing ability in damage it is discarded. Healing potions that heal all damage only absorb 5 damage instead.

8) Pick up action now only picks up 1 item instead of everything.

9) Heroes can only carry 5 total treasure/items in a "backpack". Items that are equipped don't count towards that limit. Example: 1 Amour, weapons (up to hand limit), 1 head piece, 2 rings, 1 pair of boots. Everything else counts against your backpack limit. Heroes can only have have 1 worn piece active at once (exception: 2 rings or two weapons).

10) Enemies drop carried treasure in their own space if attack at range. At range zero treasure is immediately picked up by attacking hero.

Well I'll leave it at that. Hope at least some of those suggestions help make MD a bit more challenging (many say it's too easy at higher levels) and increase decisions.
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Jason Daniels
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smurfORnot wrote:
Frohike wrote:
The main decision space lies in the choice between keeping the game for the miniatures haul and/or fixing the rules yourself, or selling it and getting something that was designed more knowledgeably and play tested.

I like the minis and I'm curious to see what homebrew systems the community develops, so I'm keeping it. But it's kind of a shelf toad at the moment.


I feel pitty for those who will end up buying this at retail...


I feel pity for those who don't research their purchases.
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Jim P
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I pity the fool.
 
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Alex Tzakis
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Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.
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Brian Torrens
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The Boilerman wrote:
smurfORnot wrote:
Frohike wrote:
The main decision space lies in the choice between keeping the game for the miniatures haul and/or fixing the rules yourself, or selling it and getting something that was designed more knowledgeably and play tested.

I like the minis and I'm curious to see what homebrew systems the community develops, so I'm keeping it. But it's kind of a shelf toad at the moment.


I feel pitty for those who will end up buying this at retail...


I feel pity for those who don't research their purchases.


What research? They altered the rules after the KS project closed.

Backers know what Zombicide is like and this is the same creative team. The components are great and the game is fun in a one-off mode. It just lacks in the campaign rules....
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.
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zinho73 wrote:
Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.


With the Shadow Mechanic having changed three times, I think even Guillotine Games are aware it's not the best it can be. I think when they do a 2nd season, they'll realize they are going to have to alter rules if they want backers from this campaign to go all in again. This happened with Rum and Bones. Everyone pointed out some glaring issues with the game that the designer defended, but come 2nd season, they revamped the rules drastically and offered an upgrade kit.

Jorune
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Brian Torrens
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Jorune wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.


With the Shadow Mechanic having changed three times, I think even Guillotine Games are aware it's not the best it can be. I think when they do a 2nd season, they'll realize they are going to have to alter rules if they want backers from this campaign to go all in again. This happened with Rum and Bones. Everyone pointed out some glaring issues with the game that the designer defended, but come 2nd season, they revamped the rules drastically and offered an upgrade kit.

Jorune


That is my hope as well. In the meantime, I am certain there will be plenty of fan made content to tied us over
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Rob H
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zinho73 wrote:
Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.


I was going to quote glyph as I really agree. The salt mines are churning. Yes, MD is undercooked (I am looking at you loot rate and transmute), but the core is really cool. Yet, it seems like some just want to ignore the game and toss it out when some basic numberical tweaks can really change everything.

Then I saw zinho's post. I agree. The game was a huge commercial success. The message to CMON should not be "minis are all that matter" or "it sold well, why change anything in season 2". Last night I looked at the side of my KS box and read the tag, "CMON: good miniatures, great games" and laughed.

I like the game. I am modding the game. I am reading others' attempts to beef it up with glee. MD is not a mess, it is just undercooked. Minor numberical tweaks can do a ton of work with the otherwise solid mechanical frame and components (unlike other undercooked games).
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Steven R
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Rhetorical question? I'm not sure what people saw when they looked at the Kickstarter. I saw Zombicide with a few extra mechanics and an increased selection of Foes. That's about it...

Campaign and balancing seems to be the main issue people are having...as I haven't played, I can't comment.

Where's the choices? Where's the decision making? Well, you picked the wrong Genre if you're looking for depth of choices...most dungeon crawlers are driven by immersion, experience, and randomness. That doesn't mean that all are as light or luck based.

I'm only expecting a light hack and slash experience that can be completed in an evening.
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Steven R
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chaplin717 wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.




I like the game. I am modding the game. I am reading others' attempts to beef it up with glee. MD is not a mess, it is just undercooked. Minor numberical tweaks can do a ton of work with the otherwise solid mechanical frame and components (unlike other undercooked games).



That depends upon what type of gamer you are...some lack any creativity and want it correct straight out of the box and are never willing to fiddle or tweak. While others enjoy fine tuning.
 
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Rob H
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sethladd wrote:
There's no resource to deplete and/or save, there's no alternate routes to consider, there's no trade-offs to make. Walk, open door, kill monsters, repeat.


I've wondered about the map design. It is much more linear than Zombicide even if the tile building mechanics are identical. So it was clearly a design choice. I know it's easy to say "lazy", but there had to have been a reason.

I think the reason might be that Roaming Monsers were supposed to be the big scary center piece as they ping-ponged up and down ("roaming") the linear map forcing the possibly inconvenient tactical choice to hide in the dark or get steam rolled. I offer that originally level markers were pillars broken to shorten the map as well. So darkness squares and double door rooms arranged along a line were probably meant to make Roaming Monsters a (slightly different geometrically) imminent threat of Abominations from Zombicide. They don't chase, they patrol. You don't search for the Molotov, you duck into darkness or try to fight.

If the above holds true, it's a great design with lots of decisions.

However, Roaming Monsters move slow. This means the longer streets and multi action activations of heroes make them a non-threat as they get out maneuvered. Also the plethora of loot and generous transmute rule makes it easy to just over power Roaming Monsters. Speed them up and adjust the power curve (by tweaking loot and transmute) and see how the linear map feels then?
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swr66 wrote:
Rhetorical question?


Not if you have to ask.

arrrh
 
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Rob H
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swr66 wrote:
chaplin717 wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Glyph485 wrote:
Man there is just a never ending mine producing salt on these forums.

I will agree that I bought all in based on wanting a real campaign system, but at least all the core components are there and we can MOD this bad boy into excellence.

I would love it if CMON saw the reception and did something in response, but I don't think piling salt onto every thread here is going to do it.


I understand what you are saying and I agree that the overt criticism can be tiresome.

That said, without hammering the nail on the head every single time, it is very unlikely that CMON will do anything about the game, or future projects around it, since it is very successful financially.

And, to be honest, given the state of the game, I still feel a lot of optimism and a great sense of community around it. I am a vocal critic of the game and I still cannot deny that it can be a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

The criticism is a sign that there is interest in the game, and it is ultimately a good thing.

But I am an odd duck in that regard. I love discussions and never get offended when someone criticizes what I like.




I like the game. I am modding the game. I am reading others' attempts to beef it up with glee. MD is not a mess, it is just undercooked. Minor numberical tweaks can do a ton of work with the otherwise solid mechanical frame and components (unlike other undercooked games).



That depends upon what type of gamer you are...some lack any creativity and want it correct straight out of the box and are never willing to fiddle or tweak. While others enjoy fine tuning.


Yeah, I hear ya. Frankly, I'd rather have had it right from the start too. But after hundreds of dollars and a year of waiting I am not going to burn it in a metaphorical fire when all I needed to do is put a few less treasure boxes in a each room or something. The core is strong, it's just super easy mode due to loot and transmute.

Worse case scenario to the non-creative salt types, wait a few weeks, then print out the OP of the most active variant post in the variant forum. My guess is you won't need to change any components or print anything else. It will likely boil down to do X to lessen loot bonanza and do Y to weaken transmute.
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Jason Daniels
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Brian T wrote:
The Boilerman wrote:
smurfORnot wrote:
Frohike wrote:
The main decision space lies in the choice between keeping the game for the miniatures haul and/or fixing the rules yourself, or selling it and getting something that was designed more knowledgeably and play tested.

I like the minis and I'm curious to see what homebrew systems the community develops, so I'm keeping it. But it's kind of a shelf toad at the moment.


I feel pitty for those who will end up buying this at retail...


I feel pity for those who don't research their purchases.


What research? They altered the rules after the KS project closed.

Backers know what Zombicide is like and this is the same creative team. The components are great and the game is fun in a one-off mode. It just lacks in the campaign rules....


I don't feel as though the rule changes fundamentally changed the game. It' still the same hack-and-slash dice-fest that it started as. The campaign mode that they tried to tack on failed, but that's about it.
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