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Subject: Do Spain/England avoid CP costs for wars declared by "Immediate War Triggers?" rss

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Ken
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Currently in a game played using VASSAL and Slack, and England just moved forces to the Netherlands. That's obviously a trigger to war, but there's some confusion as to whether or not England still pays the CP cost (5 at the moment) for taking the action that starts the war.

It's possible that this is correct - the rules aren't clear here. But it also seems to some of the players that ducking 5CP in costs by simply doing Spring Deployment to the Netherlands is awfully, awfully powerful.

So do these declarations require paying the CP cost? Or not?
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Carsten Jorgensen
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perfalbion wrote:
Currently in a game played using VASSAL and Slack, and England just moved forces to the Netherlands. That's obviously a trigger to war, but there's some confusion as to whether or not England still pays the CP cost (5 at the moment) for taking the action that starts the war.

It's possible that this is correct - the rules aren't clear here. But it also seems to some of the players that ducking 5CP in costs by simply doing Spring Deployment to the Netherlands is awfully, awfully powerful.

So do these declarations require paying the CP cost? Or not?


There is no payment. It is something Protestant should be aware of when entering an alliance with England - it might just be, that England is coming to "steal" the Spanish keys in Netherlands.

Just checking. France had no ships in Calais? Spain and Prots as well had no ships next to the North Sea? If either of them had just 1 ship, SD over the water was not possible - even if England was allied to that power (then he should have borrowed any ships to make it an option).
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Ken
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England allied with both the Protestants and France. And got the French navy on loan. ETA: And England allied with the Protestants.

Thanks for the response!
 
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Kurt Keckley
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What automatic trigger for a Spanish/English war are you talking about?
 
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Ken
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England move forces to the Netherlands during Spring Deployment.
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Joel K
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Specifically, the conditions found on the lower right of the Diplomatic Status Chart:
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Kurt Keckley
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JoelCFC25 wrote:
Specifically, the conditions found on the lower right of the Diplomatic Status Chart:


Doh! I've played a couple dozen times and never noticed that. Is it in the rule book somewhere or just on the card?
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Joel K
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Not explicitly in the rules--section 9.5 on page 14 just says to refer to this chart.
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Ocean Druen
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I will admit that it is gamey but Spain is at war with my fellow anti-papists They need England's help in maintaining the peace in their new capital.

As was mentioned in the game chat the rule is there to make it easier for Spain and England to declare war against each other (eventually) so the move is in the spirit of the game (it was also difficult to set up in the diplomacy round).
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Carsten Jorgensen
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It is also very historic, that there are the different war triggers. Spain view Netherlands as their territory. English troops there would be view as a great provocation. Just as Spanish troops in Ireland or Scotland would be seen by England as interference in their sphere of influence. Even if it is still by design to make a war more likely.

One thing to consider if it should not have been free. What would happen if England didn't have the needed CP to pay for it? Would the move then not be allowed? That would surely have been mentioned on the chart.

(Of course they would have enough CP if during SD, but it could also be done late in the action phase)

Edit: And it is not gamey at all. It is part of the rules and like you say, it can take quite some diplomacy work to make it happen.
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Ken
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Randor20 wrote:
It is also very historic...


I don't think anybody would dispute that. The fact that it avoids a 5CP cost (which is significant) is more the "Interesting..." part of things. It's also not particularly clear that this is the case in the rules - nothing in the immediate triggers section says that you don't have to pay the costs.

And it would be reasonable to have it go either way in the game. Creating conflict between England and Spain is fine and historical, so cheap works. Requiring the payment, but adding a way to declare war that violates the typical sequence would work, too.
 
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Philip Goldfarb Styrt
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It seems to me that that chart is pretty clear: this is an immediate war trigger whenever it happens, without spending XP (not just in Spring Deployment; it would also trigger if England simply convoyed troops across to the Netherlands after clearing the North Sea or allying with the French and/or Protestants, without spending any additional CP above the cost of the move). Thematically, I see that as a war provocation that bypasses traditional diplomatic channels (which are abstracted as the spending of CP). Note that England still could not attack Spanish troops or besiege their fortified spaces without the DOW: they would have to move troops in first, let the trigger happen, and then move into attack.
 
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