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Subject: A tutoring game on Snellman rss

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Per Olander
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Hi,

inspired by another thread, I as a tutor, and Iori Yagami as a beginner, decided to do a game on snellman, where I comment on decisions throughout the game, after they are done.

for instance, commenting on what to look for in this particular setup, why a faction choice might be bad, mistakes done during the rounds, why I did something specific that surpriced, etc.

I don't mind if its 2 tutors + 2 beginners, or me as a sole tutor with 3 beginners, but state your username, and what type of player you are, then I will see how many games we can fill, and if I have time for them all

the games will be made un-rated, since I don't want my rating to drop because of this experiment it will likely be tournament-settings as well.
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Iori Yagami
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Okay, I will signup for the (tough) lesson. Hopefully will start to understand where to look. laugh
Come one, fellow newbies, don't be shy.
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Joe Rakstad
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I would either be interested in playing or if there are other more eager beginners, I would at least like to see the game after it's played. I'm curious to see the commentary once it's all done. I'm sure there could be things I would learn.

My rating is right around 1000
 
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Per Olander
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joepunman wrote:
I would either be interested in playing or if there are other more eager beginners, I would at least like to see the game after it's played. I'm curious to see the commentary once it's all done. I'm sure there could be things I would learn.

My rating is right around 1000


I can post the full chat here after the game, but you are welcome to play as well
 
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Seppel (BGG)
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I would be interested in tutored playing as well.
My current rating is ~1000, I've been a bit better (maybe by luck?) but my tendency for my last games (private & league) is pretty bad...
 
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Per Olander
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lets start a game, and see how it goes!

Iori Yagami, Joe Rakstad, Seppel (BGG), please all state your snellman usernames, then I will set up a game.

others can feel free to use the thread as well, maybe other independent tutoring games will emerge from it, with or without me as a player
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Seppel (BGG)
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my Snellman User is: Seppel
 
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J A
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@Per: it is a great idea and very kind of you to offer to host a TM tutorial game for less experienced players! I would also be interested in taking part. A turn by turn game(ex. 1 move/day) sounds like a good idea, especially for those of us who live in different time zones.

My username: Caylusboy. I am a total newb on Snellman (hope that's OK), but I've played a few times against TM AI so I think I'll be ok with the interface. I've never played with the tournament settings (promo tiles, never used BONshipvp), but I can read up on them.

Looks like the seats for Per's first game are already filled. I'll wait to see if another tutorial opens up...




 
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Iori Yagami
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Iori_Yagami it is. laugh
 
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Per Olander
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first game started full chat will be posted for spectators after the game is done: https://terra.snellman.net/faction/Tutoring101/
 
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Robert
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I've done six of these a while a ago. The tutor shouldn't be overly worried about his/her rating, as the system will be reluctant to increase the score much if you win, but will be happy to subtract plenty if you don't.
 
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Per Olander
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DocCool wrote:
I've done six of these a while a ago. The tutor shouldn't be overly worried about his/her rating, as the system will be reluctant to increase the score much if you win, but will be happy to subtract plenty if you don't.


exactly - and I expect myself to be such a good tutor, that I will end up fourth
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Mind Runner
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This is Great Idea! :-)

I also wanted to get in, as a newbie, but the game has just started...
What a pity I got a bit too late... buaaaaaaaaaa

Please let me in, if there is a next match like that.
 
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Per Olander
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mindrunner2 wrote:
This is Great Idea! :-)

I also wanted to get in, as a newbie, but the game has just started...
What a pity I got a bit too late... buaaaaaaaaaa

Please let me in, if there is a next match like that.


leave your snellman username, then I or some other tutor might create another game when enough people have signed up
 
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Mind Runner
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By the way, is there any way to show/replay the moves from one match, in the Snellman website?

I already searched the Help for such a command but couldn't find any.

However I've read somewhere in this forum, one player saying that he replayed a game in order to "study" it.
This could be a great way of learning and a way to follow this game of yours. ;-)

Is this possible? If so, how?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Mind Runner
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Per Olander wrote:

leave your snellman username, then I or some other tutor might create another game when enough people have signed up


Thanks for you help!

My nick there is the same as in here, without the last numeral (2).
It's just MindRunner.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Read this topic and download TM Tools. It can help replay a game step by step.
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Per Olander
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The game has now finished

https://terra.snellman.net/faction/Tutoring101/

for anyone interested, here is the full chat log - feel free to comment on both moves and advice, I don't expect all of you to agree 100% with everything said and done in the game


admin
Game was edited by PerOlander:
@@ -10,2 +10,3 @@
option email-notify
+option loose-adjust-resource
# Randomize setup
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
the edit was just to make the game un-ranked we will just play it out as we have time, but hopefully at least a few moves a day - I will likely play rather quickly.



so, beginning with caylus, feel free to ask about your reasonings about faction picks, before you finalize your choice.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player3 (Seppel)
Hi guys,

hopefully we can learn a bit & have fun
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player3 (Seppel)
Do you want us to discuss all the moves of all players or just the individual ones?
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
Greetings, terrarians!
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
I don't really have any rules specifically set up, besides that we should put our competitive sides aside (at least mine), and then focus on the learning aspects.



so, ask whatever you would like to ask in the different scenarios, before or after you do an action, what would be wise to consider/do, ask why someone else did as they did if you find it odd, etc.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
My understanding is that 1st round town is impossible. Spade is good also absent in bonuses. Earth and water doubles. Air can be ignored.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
an initial breakdown of the game setup for me, would be something like this:



round bonuses:

good for: darklings, mermaids, dwarves, swarmlings

bad for: witches



bons available:

no bon1 (space+2coins) good for: darklings, giants, nomads, haflings, alchemists

bad for: dwarves, fakirs



both bon4 and 10 in play:

good for: mermaids, alchemists, green

bad for: dwarves, fakirs



more coins than worker bons (bon2+3+9, no bon5 1w+3pw, no bon7 1w+2vp/tp)

good for: most factions

bad for: alchemists, swarmlings, engineers
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
r1 town: this makes r1 a more "free" round, since no-one will generate round vp's and you can follow different strategies. bon6 can be used for many SH factions, and CM or darkling SA.

r2 dwellings: makes it less crucial to get act5 or act6 in r1, so again makes r1+2 more free

r3 spades: good for darklings and haflings

r4 SA/SH: likely where all SA will be built, if none in r1. a bit too early for mermaid and cultist SH, but witches and nomads can postpone their SH to here (but the rest of the setup is not that good for them, maybe nomads as a late pick, depending on other colors taken)

r5 tp + r6 d: perfect setup to make a rapid end-game expansion likely ending r4 with a lot of dwellings, good for alchemists, engineers, fakirs, dwarves (and almost everyone else as well)
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
I have no idea how all that is derived.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
what would you like to have elaborated?
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
Basically nothing is obvious or makes sense to me.

Why round bonuses bad for witches? I think they need spades, because random forest dwellings are in the middles of nowhere and have to be connect with terraforming rather than shipping?
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
the only reason I said round bonuses where bad for witches, were due to them starting with 2air, and no air bonus is present, so they have a harder time reaching 4 in earth and water than most other factions.

but witches can be a heavy dependant shipping faction! especially bon4 to go from f4-g3 and c3-c4 early game - and quite often, shipping is needed to connect g3-e9 late game, if d5/c4 and the northern route is cut off.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player1 (Caylusboy)
Hello all,

I'm dropping in quickly in the middle of work to make my pick. Wow, I have the honour of 1st pick! Thx again Per for hosting!



I think in view of Per's comments, I'll pick Halflings (it's easier for me since I don't have to consider color neighbours).

This seems like an ok pick since, from what I understand, it's a "low worker" game (no BON1, no BON5, and there's an Earth round bonus and spade scoring in R3.

I will be able to play at a rate of 1 move/day. I hope that is ok with all? Please let me know, otherwise I can resign.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
thats fine, we will just play in whatever pace people can come up with.

hafling is not bad, but I think this game is a too friendly darkling setup, to miss - if darklings are picked first, then haflings are likely scared away, but if you start out hafling, you will likely get a darkling pick later, which is not good for you. water+earth is also better than air+earth. and low worker is bad for haflings, they want to accumulate as many as possible before the spade round.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player1 (Caylusboy)
I see, Darklings are likely to get picked, Brown and Black dislike each other, and Brown is likely to be the loser in that setup. It's that I've never played Darklings before Would Nomads be a good pick then? Or Witches (even though TW scoring is super early)?



BTW, I thought I had made my pick, but it doesn't seem to have been validated... Do I just need to click on one of the factions?
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player2 (PerOlander)
well, there is a first for everything! but if you dont want to try darklings out, then nomads can be an okay choice, since then darklings are likely taken, and then haflings are definitely scared off - but if you want to go with haflings, thats also doable!



you have to press "save" after your choice, generally for all decisions, until you see it stating:



Faction (player name) should take an action
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player1 (Caylusboy)
Although this is a Darkling-friendly setup, I think I will leave them for the experts!

Thx Per for your great breakdown/analysis of the setup!
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
the last choices will of course be up to you, but in 90% of tournament games here, I think player 3 would take engineers (they are generally strong, if they can expect to not have red and green in play), and 4th player might take mermaids, or swarmlings+bon6
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
I hate engneers, always run out of everything. I saw some youtube analysis video where it was said that they are the weak faction, and swarmlings the strong. So, what is it? Is the reviewer wrong? What I don't understand? They get very few resources, and you often are stuck.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player3 (Seppel)
I had some great games with engineers - and some pretty disastrous

But since the other options look worse - I'll give them a go...
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
that video must be quite old - engineers are fragile, but often dominate. in a game like this, they would likely start at e7+f6, open with 2 temples, fav11+7, and then in r2 with bon4 and act6 at d4+e9, they open up for two more grey hexes via the temporary shipping.



the trick with engineers is most often to ignore the SH altogether, it doesn't give enough vp, compared to its ressources - and if the engine is built up properly, they can spam out more tp's and d's in r5+6 than most other factions, due to the low price of especially tp's
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
and to add to the engineers, they could consider either bon2 or bon8, to be able to reach at least 4 in earth, after securing fav11 first.

but be aware, that leaving bon8 to darklings is mostly risky, so it depends on the 4th player picks as well.
24 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
I will be offline most of the day from now on, so if you have any questions before further moves, they will likely not be answered before tomorrow
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
player4 (Iori Yagami)
How do you remember all those bon1-bon10 things? Now something like Bon1Ship or BonSpade, or Bon6c might make more sense. I mean, as a programmer I hate when developers leave out non descriptive varible names, like count, count_, count__, _count, count1, count_1, count_12_, count_nn, as crazy stuff like that.
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Competing for brown with Darklings, for red with Engineers, yikes!

Should Nomads avoid central peninsula F3+E8 altogether (anticipating black in E5 and grey in E7, and go for the West and North +BON4?
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...though if nomads in F3, turn order will let them get to E6 before Darklings
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per: if I may ask, should nomads opening (R1) be to build stronghold +BON6, or should I postpone until R4, as you suggest in your setup breakdown.

Also, I'm assuming that nomads should try to build TE by R2 and pick FAV11 before building dwellings (and scoring with D>>2)?
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Something tells me that I the only one true noob here...
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
A5 and D3 seems good for Nomads but what do I know... never won a game
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Hi Iori, D3 for nomads looks good to me too!

I'm no expert either, we're here to learn new things about the game and have fun!
23 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
If nomads get bon6, then sh opening, if not, then maybe a te opening fav11 is likely not available if you open sh.

Iori, regarding bon names: the guy who made the site, have a blog about it i think, and argued that you never now what expansions might add! Saying bonship works when only bon4 was there, then bon10 came in an expansion. Same with twncult/twn5, then twn6 came.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
Auren is often not a good pick, they are almost always worse than witches
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
ok - E7 & F6 for Engineers seems like what I would've picked as well.

But I probably would never go for "just" 2TE and nothing else? Which means they will get 1w (from Fav7) for R2?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
I've painfully experienced that an early SH for engineers is often a trap by myself
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
admin
Game was edited by PerOlander:
@@ -19,2 +19,4 @@
darklings: build G5
+darklings: +vp
+darklings: -vp
engineers: build F6
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Good day all! @Per: I doubt that in this setup BON6 (2W) will be around for long, so it'll prob be a TE opening for nomads It might be an idea to pick BON8 to compete with Darklings for the free spade cult bonus in r1?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
bon8 will likely not be around for you either
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)


22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
I don't like witch random buildings, never connects to anything. I like cities bonus, but not in this setup.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
@Per: help, the placement options for yellow don't seem great. What would you suggest for yellow's 2D?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...E8 + G4 look boxed in, and D3 has no neighbours
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Perhaps then nomads should open with SH in order to have more flexibility?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
e8 + i7 would be my choices I think.

i7 should be a doable town, before auren or darkings come by to interfere, maybe with the SA to make sure you only need 3 hexes.

e8 can bridge to d6 for one spade, and then sandstorm from there, unless you get to c3 before the engineers, which I doubt you will

g4 is tricky, depending on how early you end up getting the SH, and g4 goes badly with i7, since you wont have a backup to bridge your way out of it, unless you want to join to starting d's into one town - and nomads should really start out at 3 separate town locations.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
iori, why did you built at i6? either e9 or c3 would have been better options.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per: Makes sense, thx!
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
seems easier to connect with shipping, also anticipating nomads
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
but i6 will make a tricky town, with 2 spades for i5 first, you wont be able to spam many dwellings early
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
maybe I dont want a town there
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
okay, just trying to tutor here, you wanted to learn more about the game a starting dwelling, that doesnt have much potential for either a town or some easy dwelling expansions, is rarely wise, if you just intend to let it sit on its own, and then connect it indirectly later on.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Potential, I don't know how to calculate that. Can't predict future. Who know how it will turn out.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
My plan for R1 so far (heavenly influenced by Per : Bon8, e7->TP->TE+Fav11, F6->TP->TE+Fav7,P->Earth.

The only other Bon tile that seems interesting right now, would be Bon3. But stealing Bon8 just seems to good and useful?!
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Auren (Iori Yagami)
How do you calculate costs? Do you always do it? Is it any fun? I just don't like it.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
Calculating is a big thing if you want to do reasonably in this type of game. I rarely use the planning tool for "real" input, but id you do, it can simulate the game for you. I mostly just write keywords for myself, like what seppel just wrote. And seppel, be aware that I start with a p as well, plus someone can take act2
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
But once you have played just a short amount of games, you should be able to memorize costs for different types of buildings, for all but engineers and swarmlings. Sh/sa coin cost varies a bit, but that can easily be checked clicking on the faction name
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Single costs maybe, but whole chains, with intervening power gain, I don't know. Planning tool is useful, I use it to check during the endgame for max points.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
I'm using the planning notepad - so no need for any calculating...



I'm aware I wont get the 3 steps space in the cult track, but with Fav11, Fav7 + 2steps it's not that crucial. I consider Fav11 more important and would decide what to do first after seeing what my opponents are doing.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
What is planning notepad? Is it cheating?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
nope - just the textfield you get, when you click on the Planning box.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
There you can enter all the moves you're planning to do and on "Show Result" you'll get the possible board situation after your moves...
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
my plan from above would read like:

---

pass bon8.

upgrade e7 to tp.

upgrade e7 to te. +fav11.

upgrade f6 to tp.

upgrade f6 to te. +fav7.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
Anyway - I'm still not sure if Bon8 or Bon3 would be better?

Bon8 is a save spade from the round tile.

Bon3 is a lot of money for the Engineers
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Engineers (Seppel)
Especially since I'll end R1 without any money income...
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
I would have taken bon8 in your position
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
Then you can go for bon2/3/9 in r2, since your dwellings only cost 1c each
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Auren (Iori Yagami)
building for engineers are cheaper, but terraforming just the same as others, and he gets little resources, esp workers.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
That was quick. Per: well, does that that leave BON3 as the only remaining sensible pick?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
Bon3, unless you would go something like:

Bon4

Act2

Tp

Te fav11 if still available, otherwise maybe 9

Adv ship

G4

B4



Maybe not optimal since r2 is dwellings, but a solid economy can be better than early vp.



You could also just rush to fav11 with bon3, and then pass first to bon4, and then take g4 and b4 in r2
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Boy, that strategy (expansion to B4, G4) never even occurred to me: if I took act2, I thought it would be to place on earth for the free spade bonus in r1.



So yes, since I'm first player, I was wondering whether I should begin with a PW action: either choose act2 (to try to be first to place on earth: that might force Darklings to place their P there first) or act5 (to terraform , then build D in E6)?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
well, now you at least have a few options to consider bon4+act2, to get shipping temporarily to 2, can be a very strong strategi for alchemists, with 4 black hexes from c1 to a8 - for most other factions, it can be interesting, but also dangerous, due to coin shortage.



and in this game, both r2 and r3 likely will encorage for more d's than tp's built, so I would tend to go for fav11, first pass bon4, then ship+2 yellow hexes in r2.
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
ok, "going for fav11" means in r1: pick BON6, first move take act5 and dig/build in E6, then upgrade to TP, then TE and pick FAV11? (apologies if I'm misunderstanding!



In r2: take bon4, then ship (with my fresh P!)+2 to G4 B4?

22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
Bon3, but you dont have pw for act5 so just tp, te fav11, pass bon4 - you could try and squeeze a power act in, but both engineers and auren will likely be interested in bon4 r2 as well
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Yes, I meant BON3.

I can just upgrade an existing d to tp, but I thought there was a premium on act5; I could burn 4pw, couldn't I, to dig in E6?



Are you saying that I shouldn't bother with power actions, just open with upgrading an existing d (in F3) into tp? Is that because of the race for FAV11?
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Nomads (Caylusboy)
My bad, only have 7 pw available, so can't burn 4, of course!
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
nomads start with 7pw in bowl 2, so you dont have enough to burn 4, before you have at least leeched 1

well, if you want to make sure to get bon4 in r2, power actions in r1 can be tricky - but you dont have to commit to it right away, unless you want act2, which is the only you have power for right away (act1 not relevant here)
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
so you can go for the TP and maybe temple first, since you need leech anyway, and then decide on a power action later in the round, given how everyone else plays out
22 days ago, round 0, turn 0
Darklings (PerOlander)
seppel, you will need 2c more, to be able to built 2 temples - so after securing fav11, act4 might be a good idea, since it gives 5 more coins for 2pw, compared to just doing a simple 2pw -> 2c conversion.

this will also allow you to adv. ship in r2, to reach one of either c2 or c5, if you dont get bon4 in r2
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
caylus, how much attention did you but into which dwelling you upgraded? this first temple, will likely also be the building you upgrade to SA later in the game, and thus you have already decided where you have the possibility of a 3hex town - not saying that it was the wrong choice, but that its something to have in mind already from the beginning
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
So burn 3 pw to take act2 and challenge Darklings for first on earth wouldn't have been a good idea.

Is it because the priority right now is the race for fav11?
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
@Per: not enough, it seems! Would it have been wiser to upgrade the d in I7?
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
Fav11 is a very safe choice for all factions, especially those without built-in vp mechanisms, like nomads.

Dont know if i7 would be better, but always consider which dwelling you turn into the first temple, since it likely 9 out of 10 games will end up being your SA.

F3 can work, sine the other 2 hexes in that town will likely have neighbors, making the tps cheap
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thx! I will have to remember that lesson (my first TE is likely to be where I build my SA later, so upgrade where I'm likely to have my 3-hex tw)
22 days ago, round 1, turn 1
Engineers (Seppel)
Question: seeing that there are only 2 other TP before my move wouldn't it been better to first upgrade F7 to TP so I could leech more power when Darklings upgrade their building?

Just a nuance but maybe those naunces sum up?
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Engineers (Seppel)
correction: ...only 1 other TP...
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Engineers can easily be left with no worker income and ability to do anything.
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
there are 2 tp's, me and auren, but you already secured fav11, so no rush for that - you likely want act4 to be able to build tp+te in f6, so unless you fear that me or nomads might want to take that before you, then a TP would give you more leech, yes.



also remember that auren gets a favor if they build their SH.
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
iori - thats why fav7 is good for engineers, and the 5pw income from the second temple - also, if you dont want act6, act3 is rarely contested in the early game, and if everything plays out for seppel, he will build 2-4 dwellings in r2.
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
and building your tp before act4 seppel, you also need to consider if I will use those 3pw you give me one move earlier, and if it will benefit me a lot
21 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Engineers (Seppel)
I meant before/instead of my move to build the TE & secure Fav11...
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
oh yes, then you could have built the second TP before, since Auren hadn't built their TP yet.
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Engineers (Seppel)
but would it have been something a good player would do?
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
if you needed the power yes - there is little to no downside to it, but it would lock you onto the "2 temple" track for good, so a little loss in flexibility.

some might also prefer to go act6 now, and built both d4 and e9 now in r1, to work up the worker production, and then ship to c2 and c5 in r2 with the D bonus.



but fav11 rush is often something where you closely look out for what the others do - who is the first to "break free", and take a power action, send a priest to the cults, etc. you dont want to go tp-te, if it misses out on a power action, when you could have gone tp-action-te instead without any difference.

and if factions like Swarmlings and Giants are in play, who almost always want to go SH r1, then you can more safely rely on getting fav11, and then the real rush is likely for act6, 5 and 2.
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per: I was considering my options. I realize you suggested to pass first to secure BON4, then in r2 adv my shipping and ship to yellow hexes in b4, g4.

Since I have 4 pw to burn, I was wondering whether, given how everything has played out, there is a pw action Nomads should not miss out on in Turn 3?

Such as perhaps: take act3, up D in I7 to tp, TE, and take FAV7. This would allow me to reach step 4 on the Earth track and gain the cult bonus (clearly I haven't entirely given up on this idea ). I could apply the free spade to, say, E6, which would be prepped for building in r2. Cost would be 4W + 8 coin. With FAV7 my revenue in r2 would still be 3W.



But I'm not sure whether taking an pw action (act 3 or other) now is a good play. First, it might be better to save pw to burn for an important action in r2.

More importantly perhaps, I risk losing BON4, and the opportunity of building 2 cheap D in r2 (you mentioned Engineers may also be interested in shipping in r2).



My understanding is that the priority in the early game is to get one's "economy going" (increase w production), in which case focussing on building 2D in r2 seems like the better route.



So I guess my turn 3/r1 should be: abstain from taking any pw actions right now, and pass+BON4?
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
well, you can be pretty confident, that I will at least build a temple, engineers will likely do the same and/or use their priest, and aurens have a priest, bon2 and ressources enough for a SH/temple - so you should have plenty time for a pw act before passing, and still get first pick of bon4



so, what you would need for that, is likely lots of coins - both to ship, but also since you will be building more dwellings, and not have a stable coin income, and the nomad SH is expensive later on.
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...another idea crossed my mind, if I may ask:

If I have time for a pw act, what about taking act4, then pass+BON4?

If I pass first, I will be start player next turn.

I could open with act3. That would secure me a total of 7w.

With 21c (+1 from BON4), I could consider:

- adv shipping +1, ship to b4 or g4 (so build 1d instead of 2, as per original plan)

- upgrade d in I7 to tp, SH



The cost would be (if I'm not mistaken): 17c, 7w, 1p.

On the one hand, it seems nice for a SH faction to get their SH out early (and sandstorm seems powerful). The downside seems that I will have a revenue of only 3w in r3 (instead of 5), and I won't be taking full advantage of vp scoring in r2.



So, does the above short term objective make any sense, and if I were to take a pw act before passing, would act 4 be a better choice for yellow than act3?



20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
Act4 is the best option now - you likely wont have enough power for both, even if you split them across r1 and r2, and then your SH plan fails.



The sh seems strong yes, but nomads play perfectly fine if you delay sh for r4 bonus.



I would go with act4, pass bon4, ship, g4, b4



R3 spades also talks against the sh
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
yes, I was thinking either act3 or 4, not both...
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...and thank you very much!
20 days ago, round 1, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...and thx for reminding me about r3 scoring!
20 days ago, round 1, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Ugh, think I goofed. I was too hasty...
18 days ago, round 2, turn 3
Engineers (Seppel)
??? Explain what you really wanted to do and Per could undo your last turn...
18 days ago, round 2, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Well, I was thinking the following might have been better for my Turn3: I should have burned 1pw +act5 and transform I8 or E6 (perhaps I8 would be a priority) into my home color. That would have allowed me to get a 3rd d out this round (+4vp)

Building in B4 could have waited until my Turn 4.

But it's ok, I'm here to learn from my mistakes





18 days ago, round 2, turn 3
Darklings (PerOlander)
Redo it i thinke6 is best, since you also open up d3 - you may have to give up on a twn around i7 anyway
18 days ago, round 2, turn 3
admin
Game was edited by PerOlander:
@@ -94,4 +94 @@
auren: upgrade H4 to TP
-nomads: Leech 1 from darklings
-nomads: Leech 1 from auren
-nomads: build B4
18 days ago, round 2, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thx guys!
18 days ago, round 2, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per: I was wondering, to take advantage of round scoring and BON4, should nomads continue their building spree and build in D3? Or hold on to its coin reserves for r4?

If I postpone passing I might also get a better bonus tile (like BON3).



Looking ahead to r4: spade scoring will be important for Darklings (with 2p), don't think nomads will be doing much digging (other than possibly by act5).

I would say Nomads' r4 objectives should be: to upgrade 1-2 dwellings to tp, te (maybe even get my SA twn out?), so it might be best for nomads to hold on to its coin?






17 days ago, round 2, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...sorry, I meant r3 (not r4)
17 days ago, round 2, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
d3 in r2 to get vp, and then in r3, forget about the spades, get some TP's up and running, and focus on having ressources for both SH and SA in r4
17 days ago, round 2, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)

17 days ago, round 2, turn 5
Nomads (Caylusboy)
That act6 was a nice play Seppel!

Iori, I like how auren are doing so well in the cults thanks to your SH ability+fav6 combo
16 days ago, round 3, turn 1
Engineers (Seppel)

16 days ago, round 3, turn 2
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Not really worth it probably...

BTW, I am going to be away until next days late night.
16 days ago, round 3, turn 2
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Hey PerOlander, could I please redo last move? Forgot to make 2 coins from power? I want first to make 2 coins, then repeat what I did. convert 2pw to 2c. upgrade H4 to SA. +FAV10. +TW6 Thanks! I am out until next day's late night!
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Hey all, I assume we're waiting for Per to respond to Iori's request?
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Hi! Unexpected wifi from.mobile. I just need 2 coins and you can go on, if possible.
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
Engineers (Seppel)
I'm ok with waiting...
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
admin
Game was edited by PerOlander:
@@ -147,2 +147,3 @@
darklings: Leech 3 from engineers
+auren: convert 2pw to 2c
auren: upgrade H4 to SA
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
Darklings (PerOlander)
Sure
16 days ago, round 3, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Recap of r3: Per, I think nomads' p to earth in turn1 was not a good play. It only resulted in 2 more coin from the cult bonus. Without it nomads would have had 15c for r4 (sufficient for building sh-sa).

I'm thinking the two following plays would have been better: either to have placed p on the 3 spot of fire (instead of earth), or to have built 2 te only and passed early, maybe getting BON6?
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
If nomads pass now, I'm guessing BON10 would be the best pick? 1 c and 1 vp less than bon9, but it opens up the possibility of a quick pw action in r4 (with it I will have 5pw)
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
Looks fine
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thx Per, that's reassuring to hear!

But I was wondering: was p to earth in my r3/turn1 ok, or would p to fire, or an earlier pass been better?
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
given that you are still 4th in earth, yes it might have been better
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
That was my feeling, thx for the confirmation!
15 days ago, round 3, turn 4
Engineers (Seppel)
I need a hint what option to take for my next turns:

Option 1)

Action act5. build g6.



Option 2)

Action act5. build d6.



Option 3)

Action act3.

build c2.



either way:

Pass BON3 or BON9 or BON8.



Option 1: Block darklings from connecting their two settlements. G6 seems crucial to do so for them.

Option 2: Make sure Engineers can connect in the end.

Option 3: Expand the own second city (in spe) further and prepare for R4 (SH+SA).
14 days ago, round 3, turn 5
Darklings (PerOlander)
I might be a bit biased here, since I will likely be interested in g6 later

but g6 is 2 spades for you, and not needed, since you already completed the town. with the same 2 spades, you can get c3+d6, to make connection easier for you.



I think bon9 is best for you now, if you only want to build SA next turn, if you also want SH, then bon3 might be better. you need to consider if SH is worth it, its worker expensive for the engineers, and you would need to look into bridging d4-c2, d6-c5, d6-e9 to get vp's out of your SH.
14 days ago, round 3, turn 5
Engineers (Seppel)
ah - your right - G6 is two spades... Ok. That's too expensive just for screwing Darklings up
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
and without either c4 or d6, you will be screwed too
14 days ago, round 3, turn 6
Engineers (Seppel)
that's right - also those are two possible spaces and Nomads arent that close to take them both...
14 days ago, round 3, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
Seppel, I would now take act6, build e7 SA fav10, and then spam as many d's out this round, instead of going SH - for the price of SH, you will get 3 d's + 3 extra coins, and with fav11, you get 6vp instead of 5vp for the SH round - so engineers rarely build their SH at all. especially here, since you can only build it in an already completed town, or need a TP first (which you want to save building to next round)



you have the following hexes available, with an act6 + maybe one more shipping:

c2, c3, c4, d6, g2, g1
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Engineers (Seppel)
build e7 SA fav10 was my plan as well. And you're probably right - spamming D'S in R4 will give me the options to get as many points as possible in R5...

Thanks for this tipp!
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
the d's are also worth a lot more when it comes to network scoring, plus you have bon9 now
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Hi guys! (just back from work).



So, speaking of c4, d6 and act6...



Per, if I may consult: Act 6 is available and I have 6pw to spend. My thinking is that nomads should aim for at least 2 towns (if not 3).



If so, I see a SA town centered on F3 (sandstorming into E5)

I see another town, with SH in E8, extending into d6 c4 and joining up with d in b4. So perhaps a SH-d-d-d town (if I can get FAV5 from my SA town). I don't see where my second town could be otherwise.

Plus this seems like what a player would do in a competitive setting, to block engineers.



So I,m thinking, nomads must act quick and take act6 (also to prevent grey from doing so itself and killing yellow's prospects of a town centered on E8).



So Per, would the following make sense for my r4/Turn 1: act6, dig d6 to yellow, dig c4 to blue (to discourage engineers from going there, nomads can sandstorm there later), build d in d6.

WIs there a chance that engineers would take act5 and forfeit 3w to go to c4 anyway?



14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Or, possibly, my plan for a town with SH in e8 is unrealistic, and I should be doing something else?
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
Engineers MUST have either c4 or d6 to connect, so yes that is a risk that he will take c4 anyway.

I think i would go for a town from e8, d5, bridge to c4, b4 - so first sh at i7, which can also realisticly be a town, unless i get two ship fast.



Should engineers go c4 instead of d6, you can make a town at a7-a9, b4-b5, since you will have two cheap tp's there.

Something like that... so either sh now, or act6, i8, a9
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
You need 8w 14c, if you want to build borh sh and sa
14 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
So the town from e8 would be tp-tp-d-d

The SH town would be from i7



Ugh, that means I have to build a tp in i7 first (I was hoping to use my existing tp in e8 for my sh in r4 )

If I take act6, I could apply the first spade to i8, as you suggest, but why not dig to blue with my second spade in c4 (instead of a9), if I'm aiming for a town from e8?

The intent would be to make it less tempting for engineers to go to c4.

Then in Turn2,
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
[sorry, mistype: please ignore the last line in my previous message]
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
you can go SH at e8 as well, but at a risk that the town will be cut off. that risk is also potential at i7, but I didnt notice you only had a TP one of the places, so e8 is likely better whether you use the second spade for a9 or c4 blue is up to you, at c4 it will be "wasted" since you will sandstorm later on, for now it just holds engineers off.

under normal curcumstances (where we dont discuss so much publicly in chat), engineers would likely go d6 as first priority, since it will allow them to connect via 3 shipping to e7, if they failed getting c2 (since you can potentially sandstorm both d5 and c2 over 2 turns, bridging to b4 without c4)
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
actually, I think you might be better off, only going for 2 towns... fav10 with your SA now, will be better than fav5.



and you need to remember shipping to connect, unless you get g2 or c3. but you will need at least 3 hexes more for 2 towns, 6 more for 3 towns (unless you manage to bridge to g4 as well, but then you need 2 out of 3 available act1's from now.

you SH could be e6, just to make sure that it doesnt end up not part of a town, and then focus on a lot of TP's r5
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Oh boy, I'm trying to keep up with your thought process!



Yes, I too realized that c4 to blue would be wasteful, since the plan would be to sandstorm there later.



You suggest SA with fav10 in F3 now would be best, then SH in e6. In r5, build a lot of TP's.

So with a sandstorm in e5, that would be a SA-SH-d town in r4? I'm not thrilled about having my sh-sa in the same town

But I take your point, the idea is to make sure my SH doesn't end up being cut off at e8.



But if I SA with fav10 in E6 now, it feels like I,m "giving" act6 away to engineers: I'm guessing that they will dig any 2 of c4, d6 or c3 to grey, effectively killing any prospect nomads had of a second town from e8.



In that case, where would nomads' second town be, somewhere up in the north?



Let's consider what might happen if I haven't given up on a town from SH in E8:

Turn 1: take act6 now, dig c4 to black (with the intent of temporarily blocking grey from going there)

Turn 2: build SH in E8

Turn 3: sandstorm + build in D5

Turn 4: upgrade F3 to SA with fav10



My long term plan for the second half of the game would then be: aim for largest network by expanding through the north, sandstorming in r4, r5, and digging red and brown hexes. Also building TP's with fav10 in r5.



Does that make any sense? (sorry for this long consultation, and thx for your patience, but this seems to be a decisive moment in our game!)
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
im not saying you shouldnt take act6 - I am just saying that 3 towns looks a bit far away... and that fav10 is too much to miss out of, with TP r5.



I actually think act6 a7+a9 is the best choice! then you will be able to make a town with a single sandstorm at a8, nomatter what the engineers do at c4+d6



so r4 like this:



act6 a7, a9 (build a7)

SA fav10

SH e6

sandstorm, likely g2, so 2ship is enough to connect later
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
regarding the fight over c4+d6 peninsula - you (and seppel), also need to consider what Iori's plan is here... he completed his town, so will likely look at either a lot of easy green hexes, or to expand for a second town. he has 1 shipping + 1 temp this round, and 1 priest in stock - maybe he is thinking of going:



adv ship

c4

c3

a10
13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Ah, thank you, act6 at a7, a9 hadn't occurred to me (guess I was hopelessly fixating on capitalizing on my tp at e8, lol!)

13 days ago, round 4, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Fav10 is gone! What would the next-best pick be, fav12, or perhaps fav5? The latter would make my towns cheaper...
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Fav5 also grants 2 steps in fire...
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
fav5 is a big trap for most new players - it should only be taken if you go for 3, or even 4 towns.

some cases, 3 towns don't even need it.

yes, the 2 steps will give you an extra worker, but given that you will have e8 TP after this round, plus more tp's in r5, I would take fav12, it will bring you 2vp in r5 + likely 4vp in r6.
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
BTW, quick question re leech: after midgame, is leaching (in the present case) 6pw for 3vp worth it? I would think yes
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...sorry, cost is 4vp
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
leeching is VERY situational - you can't really set up a formula for how big leeches is acceptable in each round... 2pw for 1vp is almost always worth it in r4, and likely in r5 as well - but it depend on desired power actions, passing bons, what other leech do I expect to get later this round, etc.
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
maybe only accept leech from engineers (4pw/3vp)?
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
thats the expensive leech - unless you have a certain pw act in mind right now, I would decline 4, accept 2.



the lower the number, the better pw/vp ratio you get.
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Does this reasoning make sense: seeing as I will be generating pw through tp's, I should decline leech/substantial vp loss?
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Nomads (Caylusboy)
ok
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Darklings (PerOlander)
yes - you will likely not get a pw action in r5, due to low income now, so you should aim at a pw act in r6, where you will have more pw income, up to 2 now + 4 next turn.
13 days ago, round 4, turn 2
Engineers (Seppel)
ok - so change of plans for Engineers Early Pass, take Act6 at the beginning of r5, build Ds, upgrade to TPs
13 days ago, round 4, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Sounds good Seppel, and auren are beating all the records on the cult tracks!
13 days ago, round 4, turn 3
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Just dropping by briefly.

What a dilemma! Pass with BON6 is tempting (it's worth 8vp+2w). But I can't imagine myself passing now and wasting my special ability this turn...
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
You will need coins for the tp's as well, i would sandstorm e5, just to be sure its not cut off, use the p to build and take twn1, then pass for bon2/6/9
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
That was my thinking exactly just now! Budget of 4c in r5 isn't much, I,ll need at least 6 for 2 tp's. Maybe BON2 (+5c) might be better (or BON6, 9 as you suggest) , especially since I'm not sure to get act4 in r5.



So sandstorm in e5 it is, bye bye BON6!


13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
May I ask Per, what do you mean by "use the priest to build and take town 1"?
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
Convert p to w, sandstorm AND build e5 at once town1 for coins
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Oh, I think I get it: convert p to 1w, build d in e5 after sand storming (with my remaining 2c), right?
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
ok
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Very nice!
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
Yes
13 days ago, round 4, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per, if I may consult: I was considering:

act5 +build in B2.

sandstorm +build either A6 or A8

Then 2 TP's in B2, B4



Is there any reason to think this is a bad idea?
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
I would take act4, simply because it is very powerful to deny us others, then sandstorm and buildb5, tp b4, b5, plus another cheap tp
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Yes, I can see how act4 is powerful, but after everyone has built tp's this round, won't their coin income be ok in r6?



My thinking was: act5 in b2 would allow me to connect my SA-town to my network and try to win longest network.

In r6 I could spam dwellings and hope to complete a second town in the process (I should have 10c even without act4 in r5).



By taking act4, would I be giving up on longest network?
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
You can still connect via 3 shipping.

You might also go act3 now, b4, and then spam 4 dwellings - nomads get extra coin income om their 3rd and 4th tp.

I actually think that would be my preferred choice, even though you give act4 to auren
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thx!

Sorry, what do you mean when you say "go act3 now, b4, then spam 4dwellings", do you mean:



act3

then, as you suggested above, sandstorm +build b5, tp b4, b5 plus another cheap tp (like g4 or i7)?
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
... do you mean tp in b4 now, plus 2 other cheap tp's (G4, i7, or e5), sandstorm in B5 with no build.

Then in r6, sandstorm in a8, spam dwellings in a8, b5, a9, b6 (total 4 dwellings)?
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
I think I get it now: spam d's in b1, a8, a9, b6.

I opted for act4 in the end on the grounds that money will be tight in r6 as everyone will be advancing their ship level...
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
I meant:



Act3

Sandstorm and build b5

Tp b4

Tp b5

Tp i7

Tp g4



Requires 9w 14c, so you needed one leech and convert 1pw to 1c



But act4 is also a solid move
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
... and you already have a tp, so that was not possible you will still be able to build 3 tps now (having a total of 4)
11 days ago, round 5, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Nice play Darklings (+14vp!)
10 days ago, round 5, turn 3
Darklings (PerOlander)
thanks - Iori, why not build some TP's this round? you used act5 + 2 spades at 3 expensive workers each... and now you are at 7 dwellings, going into the final round with dwelling bonus... would have made much more sense to build TP's, and then maybe pass first, to ensure act6 or act4 in r6.



overall, you seem to have build very different than the round bonuses, also building both SA and SH outside of r4.



if you press the vp number 30 in blue for you, then you get a breakdown of where your vp comes from. compared to the rest of us, you can see where it goes wrong.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
wrong?
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
we are playing this game to give you some tips and tricks on how to improve your scores you dont have fav11, but still tend to build dwellings instead of whatever gives vp for the current round. and next round where dwellings actually give vp, you will hardly be able to build any, since you are at 7 out of 8 already.



contesting the cults and maybe network is not enough in its own - if you look at my current 99vp, 29 of them are from round bonuses, 19 from favors.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
this is your VP breakdown right now:



initial 20

BON10 6

advance_ship 5

BON6 4

SPADE >> 2 2

TW 2

D >> 2 2

leech -11
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
only 4vp from round bonuses, 10vp from passing bons, and then some shipping, a town and the starting 20.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
so what?
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
Iori, I am trying to help? you signed up for this game to learn and improve, correct?



so far, you haven't really asked that many questions, it has been more Caylus and Seppel, who seem to have listened, improved, and found new ways to approach and read the posibilities.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
I already said I don't understand your bon8 this fav3 that talk. That 'teaching' game did not help at all. Okay finish next round and bye bye.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Engineers (Seppel)
Iori what's the part you don't understand? Only the acronyms we're using?

Per is trying to help without any benefit for him. Maybe you should try to accept his help?
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Engineers (Seppel)
sorry - but your last statement sounds pretty rude. And I do not really know what caused this tone!?
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
well everything I know only rules, nothing about tactics or strategy at all.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Mori, I've been impressed with your moves: your expansion to c3-d5, e3-e4, your domination of the cult tracks!

Don't forget, this is not a competitive game, we're here to have fun and learn this, so don't hesitate to consult Iori. He has been more than willing to help!
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...sorry I mistyped your name Iori
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Ok thanks. I try and see, this is how I play.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Engineers (Seppel)
@Per: do you think it's worth the effort to get another TE (that way advancing in water)?

Possible plan:
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Engineers (Seppel)
upgrade c4 to tp.

send p to water.

advance ship.

convert 3pw to 3c.

upgrade c2 to tp.

burn 2. convert 2pw to 2c.

convert 1w to 1c. upgrade c2 to te. +fav6.
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Engineers (Seppel)
only downside (AFAIK): maybe loosing D6 to Auren...
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Darklings (PerOlander)
2 tp's is better - where would you use the spade anyway? maybe even secure d6 now, since you want some w production next round, and then it seems quite safe you will get act6 if wanted, nomads are the only competitor with enough pw tokens, but likely not enough pw income/desire for act6 anyway
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Engineers (Seppel)
2 TPs are certain - either way. Can't see a way to do get 3.

With 2 shipping I wuold see a few places where I could make good use of a "free" spade: A3 or A12 or A6...
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Darklings (PerOlander)
as long as you do 2 tp, then d or te is up to you
10 days ago, round 5, turn 5
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Per, I noticed people convert pw to c just before passing, like you just did (you did 2pw to 2c). Is this to have a reserve of pw in Bowl I so that you can not miss out if any leeching opportunities arise after you've passed this round, or before your turn next round?
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
I have 6pw income for next round, so that will bring my current 3/0/2 pw to 0/0/6, so this was just to be able to fully use my normal pw income.



but yes, if you pass either early, and expect more leech this round, or late, and expect leech from the other's first moves next round, you can benefit from planning that into account as well
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Good to know!
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
late game, where you often will get high leech due to many buildings, it can also be nice to plan around this, if you know that someone want to upgrade, for instance to SH or SA (these are easy to predict where they will go), and lets say it will offer you 6 leech - this is expensive, and you will likely pass, but if you can keep your bower bowls at 0/1/5 = 1 leech for 0vp instead! so, the closer you are to full power, the cheaper leech you will get, even though it would otherwise be at expensive hexes.
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Nomads (Caylusboy)
I see, it's good in late game to keep one's power bowls close to full power, in order to accept cheap leech (2pw/1vp, or better yet 1 free pw!) This is because of the "if you aren't able to gain all the Power, you only need to pay VP for what you gain" rule. Thx!
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
yes - so unless you really need the extra power, it is generally better in late game, to keep each leech amount as small as possible
8 days ago, round 5, turn 7
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Hi Per!

Question: I want to pass now. Is it preferable to pick BON10 (+9vp, which seems big, esp to try to offset my lag on the cult tracks), or hinder engineers by taking BON3 (I'm assuming they'll need the coin to adv their shipping)?
5 days ago, round 5, turn 8
Darklings (PerOlander)
They can take bon2 for coins anyway, so i would go for bon10 - unless you have a plan for yourself that requires the 6 coins.



But since you likely want to build 4d and adv ship, you only need 12 coins, so bon10 is the optimal for you
5 days ago, round 5, turn 8
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thx!
5 days ago, round 5, turn 8
Nomads (Caylusboy)
@Per: am I wrong, or have Engineers exposed themselves in D6 (in view of this round's player order)? Could not Nomads take act6 there immediately, dig to yellow and build? That expense would not prevent Nomads from achieving their other objectives this round (build 4d + adv ship). I may be totally wrong here!



An alternative course of action might be to take Act6, and dig any two of a6, b2, a12, h3, i5 or I8 to yellow. I could take twn 2 later this round to get the missing w I need to build in those 2 hexes. That would allow me to capitalize even more on the current round scoring.



Does taking ACT6 immediately seem like the obvious thing for nomads/player3 to do?



4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
normally, its not optimal to hurt one player, at an expense for yourself, but since we are in r6, and by the vp prediction, leftover ressources, etc., it looks like I am safe for first, you are fighting engineers for second, and auren are likely not able to catch up - so act6 d6 would not be a bad move. otherwise, it might be better to use it on 2 single-dig hexes, especially those that open up additional yellow hexes for you, like a6, b2, h3 - and if you didn't want 3 ship, then b2 would actually open up 2 yellow hexes! you want your sandstorm at a8 to form the second town.



but if you are going to build more than 4 dwellings, you need to make sure you have ressources to tp to te, and d to tp, since you would be at 8/8 d, 4/4 tp after the next 4 dwellings.
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Lol, thx for reminding me that I only have 4 d remaining on my (virtual) board!

If I got tw2 after forming my second town, I would have a surplus of 3w and 4c. That doesn't seem like enough to tp to te, and d to tp...

I plan to form my second town by building in a8, a9 (with a sandstorm in a8), then 2 more dwellings (b1, b6 are already yellow).



Would the competitive play be to take act6 and build one of those 2 towns in d6? (to deny this act to other players and to block engineers)?



I'm hoping I have a shot at longest network (with 14 structures), but I'm afraid that if I leave act 6 for others, I may risk losing that.
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
edit: one of those 2 "dwellings" (not towns) in d6
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
IF you go act6 d6, you dont even need 3 ship, since you can get d6, a8, a9, b6.

Then you can evaluate if shipping due to bon10 is still the best option for your ressources.
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
Sorry, you still need 3 ship to connect i dont think anyone will compete with 14 in network, engineers are at 8, with 3 open grey hexes, so even with act6, (and only 3w+2p, no twn coming up), he will likely max at 11 - and denying him act6, means you will cut his network, and deny him 3x4vp from 3 dwellings - d6 plus the two hexes he would dig



I think act6 d6 is the rigth play here!
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
I am at 8 network, one black, 4 priest 2 worker, that will likely total me at 11 in network
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
Auren can get to 13 network with those 4 open green hexes, but he need to build a tp for each dwelling after the first
4 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
I think engineers will be ok to build their 3rd dwelling, even if nomads take act6: they can act5+build in any green or red hex.

I suspect engineers also have an eye on act1 this round



Something you said Per, of the need for resources got me thinking: it would have been nice if nomads had the resources to 2te this round, and pick x2 level 3 favours to catch up on the cults! Unfortunately, twn1 is no longer available

If it had been, I could have act3 and converted pw for the missing worker. That would have been cool! I guess those town tiles disappear more quickly in a 4 player game!



Anyway, I guess with twn2, I could at least get 1 te out for the favour.






3 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
well, engineers only want act1, if they have two grey hexes to connect - and they can only do so, if you let them have d6 in general, bridge vp's from engineers aren't that strong, most of the time, you should be able to squeeze more vp out of something else, often related to network or cult advancement.



a TE cost you 2+5 ressources = 2,33 vp if converted - and right now, even 3 steps on a cult, will not help you at all on water, hardly anything on fire and earth (we can still use a single p or fav6 from engineers), and on air, you can go from 3rd or tied 2nd, to solo 2nd - and this required twn2, which will give you 4vp less than twn8! in addition, you will get 1vp less from fav12, since you go from 4 to 3 tp when passing.



I would go act6 d6, get the other 3 dwellings out and complete your town, take twn3 (p to air) or 8, adv ship to connect
3 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Oh right, I forgot about the vp loss with my fav12 if I go from 4 tp to 3! Yellow should certainly not build any te's!



Wow, it hadn't occurred to me that the build in d6 would also block engineers' prospect of a bridge e9-d6.




3 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
he could have built two bridges, c5-d6 and d6-e9 - but bridges are rarely worth it for engineers in r6, if they aren't needed to form a town or create connection for network - the ressources should net you more vp elsewhere, unless you manage to get passing vp 2 or 3 times per bridge.
3 days ago, round 6, turn 1
Darklings (PerOlander)
and a thing to remember in r6: unless you need to rush to a specific town tile, level 10, a contested hex, etc., it can be wise to delay actions, so dig first, build later, instead of combining them - this might give you more knowledge on what the opponents wants to do, and might even have them pass, before you decide what cults to focus on, how much network is needed to win, should you get another favor, etc.
1 day ago, round 6, turn 4
Darklings (PerOlander)
*level 10 in a cult, and also a needed power act of course.
1 day ago, round 6, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
hey everyones online? finish now?
1 day ago, round 6, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
@Per: sounds great, thx! So delay as much as possible, for example before sending a p to the cults, or (as in my present case) hoping to get some more leech for a last pw action, got it!

@Iori: I'm around today, so I'm good to wrap up our game
1 day ago, round 6, turn 4
Auren (Iori Yagami)
nice
1 day ago, round 6, turn 4
Nomads (Caylusboy)
@Per: I was wondering. Considering the resources I have left, what would be more optimal: p to air?

Or convert p >> 1w, tp to te, pick FAV4 >> climb 3 steps on air (instead of only 2), which might give me a better shot at 2nd place on that track (+4vp). However, that would entail 1vp loss (from my fav12), but 3pw gain on that cult (+1 vp).

I would think the latter move is better?
18 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Oops, I'm 1c coin short to build te, so I would also have to burn 1pw...
18 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Darklings (PerOlander)
You are right in challenging me, since we are competing neck to neck a te will cost you 7 ressources, but get 3pw back, a net loss of 5 ressources, 2vp. Plus the vp loss from fav12.

P to air will not cost you any vp in ressources.

So even though i might follow up with a p to air, it is still the best move for you to send p to air, and forget about any additional buildings.
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Ok
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Nomads (Caylusboy)
...those resources are worth more points than if I spend them to build (7c=2vp)
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Darklings (PerOlander)
Yes
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Auren (Iori Yagami)
still more fun to do stuff than hoard points
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 6
Darklings (PerOlander)
That depends on why you play a game of course you should have fun, but for most people that includes competing about doing as well as possible
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Auren (Iori Yagami)
doing well=having fun
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
Yes - but in caylus' case (and mine after one more dwelling) doing more stuff = doing worse
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Auren (Iori Yagami)
maybe this game should go for 8 rounds? until you build everything?
17 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Thanks all for the game, it was really fun!

I am especially thankful to Per for this tutorial. Thx for all your insightful comments! For my part, I can safely say that it would have taken me 10 or more games with my regular group to learn as much as I learned in this game!
16 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
As a player, you always urge to "complete" everything - I had the same feeling especially with agricola and marco polo, since you get so committed, and there is always more you want to do - but from a gaming view, it would make most games too easy and boring, if you make it possible to "complete" it 100% everytime you play it.



But it can be a fun and healthy exercise to set sub-goals in different games:

Winning all cults

Winning all cults AND network

Completing 3 towns without fav5

Completing 4 towns

Having ALL structures on the map at game end

Winning with 0 towns

Etc...



All these games might not be perfect, but it can teach you something about different aspects of the game
16 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Auren (Iori Yagami)
I agree. Points are just too boring by themselves. Never liked VP in any games.
16 hours ago, round 6, turn 7
Darklings (PerOlander)
May i ask why you like/play TM then? It is after all a heavy vp-collectathon
16 hours ago, round 6, turn 8
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Why not? I like it. Click click, have fun.
16 hours ago, round 6, turn 8
Engineers (Seppel)
thanks for the game & especially thanks for your tutoring Per!

It really helped a lot and I hope I can use a bit of the newly learned in some future games
13 hours ago, round 6, turn 8
Darklings (PerOlander)
You are welcome once the game is over, I will copy the chat into the bgg thread, then maybe some of the orher experienced players will comment as well, and tell you where they think I was wrong
11 hours ago, round 6, turn 8
Nomads (Caylusboy)
Just in case you missed my chat (a little higher up), tanks from me too!
7 hours ago, round 6, turn 9
Darklings (PerOlander)
I did miss it and well played, you did very good, especially with nomads that can be "easy to play, but hard to score high"
2 hours ago, round 6, turn 9
Auren (Iori Yagami)
Nice. Thanks and good game.
51 minutes ago, round 6, turn 9
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Robert
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I paid 100 Geek Gold so that you can read this! :-)
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I didn't read through the wall of text, but just from looking at the resulting VP I conclude that one of your pupils must have been somewhat immune to advice.
 
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Per Olander
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DocCool wrote:
I didn't read through the wall of text, but just from looking at the resulting VP I conclude that one of your pupils must have been somewhat immune to advice.


some were more active than others in asking for advice, debating, etc. but I think that especially 141 vp with nomads under tournament settings, as a first game ever on snellman is quite good! not sure how much Caylus played f2f before (or if it is Xevoc in disguise )
 
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Seppel (BGG)
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thanks again for the tutoring & the game

Even if my score does not really reflects it, I think I've learned quite a bit. Especially that "before gaming" analysis was extremely helpful!
 
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J A
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Thanks for posting this Per! Now I can go over our chat and make sure my notes of your tips are complete. And maybe there will be some comments by others on our game. It was a very helpful and fun experience!
As for nomads' score, our tutor deserves all the credit! I have the feeling that 1 or 2 ill advised moves by a less experienced player can drastically affect the outcome and score of a game.
 
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