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Subject: Bonus develop for L1 cotton? rss

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Jon G
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This is intended more a topic of discussion than a legit variant, but I do think it works fine:

Building Level 1 cotton is one of the following:
1. A rookie play
2. A move you get stuck with because of a poor opening hand, probably in seat 4.
3. A speculative play by a veteran to limit high-level cotton sales.
4. The only way to flip your L3-4 port in the canal age

In cases 1, 2, and probably 3, L1 cotton deserves a boost. In case 4, it needs no boost. So, how to balance those issues? Giving more points or income helps a port player who doesn't otherwise need it. So, here's a thought:

When building a L1 cotton, you may develop one cotton mill tile after your build. You consume one iron (buying from the market as needed) to develop the tile.

Now, let's look at the cases:
1. The rookie is now two tiles closer to high-level mills, so he's less screwed for his inexperience.
2. There is a more viable option when starting in the fourth seat with crap hand.
3. Early draining of the DM is less punishing, and L1-L2-L3 and L1-L1-L3 cotton more viable plays. So, cotton rushing is less valuable, which may help the port player a bit too much.
4. After building one L1 cotton, a free develop still leaves a canal port player with an L1 cotton sitting on his stack. So he's not helped as much as the other cases.

One could try to apply this rule to other industries, but it might prove too helpful for ports & ships (since it would expose rail-buildable tiles), and is definitely too strong for iron. But using it for ships would certainly incentivize L1 ships if they're unused in your metagame.

Thoughts?
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Jason Adultman
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Doesn't the new version already increase the point value of L1 cotton by 2?
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Jon G
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Jasonbartfast wrote:
Doesn't the new version already increase the point value of L1 cotton by 2?


That tries to solve the same problem. But I wonder if the bonus develop is a more balanced solution across the four use cases above. My concern is that the extra points don't really help enough in cases 1-2, and are an unnecessary bonus in case 4.

(Also, I'm only getting Birmingham, so my copy of Lancashire will still have 3pts printed on the L1 cotton tile)
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matt tolman
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I'm falling asleep but had to chime in with the fact that no high level game of brass on order of the hammer has ever been won by a player who has built a lvl 1 cotton at all.

This indicates that there are more likely no scenarios in which it's viable, not very few.

We discussed many many options, but when you award bonus actions or develops, it fundamentally changes how far you can get in x actions, which screws with the economy quite a bit and delivers an experience to far from the original in our opinion.

I'm not trying to deter you, actually the opposite! :D Just figured you might as well start where we left off in that regard, hopefully these thoughts can accelerate your journey.

Good luck!
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Andi Hub
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mopeymatt wrote:
I'm falling asleep but had to chime in with the fact that no high level game of brass on order of the hammer has ever been won by a player who has built a lvl 1 cotton at all.

This indicates that there are more likely no scenarios in which it's viable, not very few.

We discussed many many options, but when you award bonus actions or develops, it fundamentally changes how far you can get in x actions, which screws with the economy quite a bit and delivers an experience to far from the original in our opinion.

I'm not trying to deter you, actually the opposite! Just figured you might as well start where we left off in that regard, hopefully these thoughts can accelerate your journey.

Good luck!

Must be group think.

Of all groups there are.
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Alex Mauer
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ringo84 wrote:
mopeymatt wrote:
I'm falling asleep but had to chime in with the fact that no high level game of brass on order of the hammer has ever been won by a player who has built a lvl 1 cotton at all.

Must be group think.

Of all groups there are.


How many people on OOTH have attempted it? Surely that information is necessary to know the success rate?
 
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Jon G
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mopeymatt wrote:
I'm falling asleep but had to chime in with the fact that no high level game of brass on order of the hammer has ever been won by a player who has built a lvl 1 cotton at all.

This indicates that there are more likely no scenarios in which it's viable, not very few.

We discussed many many options, but when you award bonus actions or develops, it fundamentally changes how far you can get in x actions, which screws with the economy quite a bit and delivers an experience to far from the original in our opinion.

I'm not trying to deter you, actually the opposite! Just figured you might as well start where we left off in that regard, hopefully these thoughts can accelerate your journey.

Good luck!


That's really interesting data. How did you search the games to find that?

I'm surprised you don't see winners who flipped a L4 port with their own cotton. But sure enough, in games I won, I didn't have to... in games where I did, a bunch of second places.
 
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Alex Mauer
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dr.mrow wrote:
I'm surprised you don't see winners who flipped a L4 port with their own cotton. But sure enough, in games I won, I didn't have to... in games where I did, a bunch of second places.


Would you really be flipping an L4 port with an L1 cotton?
 
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Jon G
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Hawke wrote:
dr.mrow wrote:
I'm surprised you don't see winners who flipped a L4 port with their own cotton. But sure enough, in games I won, I didn't have to... in games where I did, a bunch of second places.


Would you really be flipping an L4 port with an L1 cotton?


Sure. Suppose I'm the only one building ports, and throw a bunch down. The cotton players don't want to flip my highest-level ports. Sometimes they can build their own, sometimes they can't. Sometimes one player builds a bunch of canals and irons and forgets to build mills, or the distant market is unusually kind to the cotton players.

If I let a L4 port sit unflipped at the end of the canal age, I get two more actions in the canal age, but I might need to take FOUR actions in the rail age to flip it (dev, dev, build L2 cotton, ship). If I flip it with L1 cotton, I score 12 more points, and 9 more income steps (which is probably worth $20-30 more over the course of the game). Of course, the best case scenario is other players flip all my ports while I take loans or build coal/iron, then I run away with the game in the early rail age.
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