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Subject: No Bot Two Player Pericles rss

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Philip Jelley
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I have worked out a two player version. I suspect that it will work better with the longer Peloponnesian War scenarios.

One player controls the Aristocrats and Agiad Faction, and the other the Democrats and Eurypontid Faction (this is so one player does not control both a Faction Leader and a King with an Ostracism bonus).

However, in the Theater Phase the controlling Athenian player places and resolves markers for both Athenian factions, and the controlling Spartan player for the both Spartan factions.

If one player has both controlling factions he chooses whether to be Athenian or Spartan, and his opponent the other.

Victory goes to the player whose two factions have the most combined honour at the end of the game.

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Philip Jelley wrote:
I have worked out a two player version. I suspect that it will work better with the longer Peloponnesian War scenarios.

Each player controls one Athenian and one Spartan Faction throughout the game.

However, in the Theater Phase the controlling Athenian player places and resolves markers for both Athenian factions, and the controlling Spartan player for the both Spartan factions.

If one player has both controlling factions he chooses whether to be Athenian or Spartan, and his opponent the other.

Victory goes to the player whose two factions have the most combined honour at the end of the game.



This sounds very interesting. Have you played it this way yet or is that yet to occur?

Thanks for taking the time to improve the game experience.

Mark
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
I have worked out a two player version. I suspect that it will work better with the longer Peloponnesian War scenarios.

Each player controls one Athenian and one Spartan Faction throughout the game.

However, in the Theater Phase the controlling Athenian player places and resolves markers for both Athenian factions, and the controlling Spartan player for the both Spartan factions.

If one player has both controlling factions he chooses whether to be Athenian or Spartan, and his opponent the other.

Victory goes to the player whose two factions have the most combined honour at the end of the game.



This sounds very interesting. Have you played it this way yet or is that yet to occur?

Thanks for taking the time to improve the game experience.

Mark


Not yet, I only came up with the idea this morning. Sometimes in COIN/Churchill games it seems that the bots are playing the game, and I am there just to move the pieces. I am due to teach Pericles to a friend, and I would have ended up playing my faction, two bot factions, and telling him how to play his faction as well. At least this way he will be more involved, and by making more decisions we will learn more as well.

Phil
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Philip Jelley wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
I have worked out a two player version. I suspect that it will work better with the longer Peloponnesian War scenarios.

Each player controls one Athenian and one Spartan Faction throughout the game.

However, in the Theater Phase the controlling Athenian player places and resolves markers for both Athenian factions, and the controlling Spartan player for the both Spartan factions.

If one player has both controlling factions he chooses whether to be Athenian or Spartan, and his opponent the other.

Victory goes to the player whose two factions have the most combined honour at the end of the game.



This sounds very interesting. Have you played it this way yet or is that yet to occur?

Thanks for taking the time to improve the game experience.

Mark


Not yet, I only came up with the idea this morning. Sometimes in COIN/Churchill games it seems that the bots are playing the game, and I am there just to move the pieces. I am due to teach Pericles to a friend, and I would have ended up playing my faction, two bot factions, and telling him how to play his faction as well. At least this way he will be more involved, and by making more decisions we will learn more as well.

Phil


I look forward to hearing how it goes. Have fun,

Mark
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Philip Jelley
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Hi, two games (First and Second Pelopennesian War scenarios), and it seemed to work OK. I could not see any particular way of throwing the game as a defeat affects both losing factions. We did have trouble trying to remember where we have placed a dozen odd issue counters, but doubtless we will learn that in time. I noticed that arguements in the Athenian Assembly tended to carry over to ostracism in the Spartan Assembly.

Phil
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Philip Jelley
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I Athens took Sicily and Corcyra from the Spartans, but lost Corinth and Athens. Good play by the Spartans who let their Allied bases die for the cause.
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Philip Jelley wrote:
Hi, two games (First and Second Pelopennesian War scenarios), and it seemed to work OK. I could not see any particular way of throwing the game as a defeat affects both losing factions. We did have trouble trying to remember where we have placed a dozen odd issue counters, but doubtless we will learn that in time. I noticed that arguements in the Athenian Assembly tended to carry over to ostracism in the Spartan Assembly.

Phil


Could I impose on you to write this two player variant up as bullet points and I will give it a go. I do not understand the Ostracism comment.

Thanks
Mark
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Philip Jelley wrote:


I Athens took Sicily and Corcyra from the Spartans, but lost Corinth and Athens. Good play by the Spartans who let their Allied bases die for the cause.


Wow! How did that happen beyond Athenian navy was not home or insufficient strength?
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:


I Athens took Sicily and Corcyra from the Spartans, but lost Corinth and Athens. Good play by the Spartans who let their Allied bases die for the cause.


Wow! How did that happen beyond Athenian navy was not home or insufficient strength?


The Athenians left two fleets, two land units and two bases in Athens, but had burned all their strategos taking Corcyra and Sicily. The Spartans had 7 strategos, 1 treachery, 5 fleets, one Spartan land unit, two League land units and the 300, having spent only 2 strategos defending Sicily, and none on Corcyra. To put the boot in they then destroyed the Delian bases in Corinth.
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
Hi, two games (First and Second Pelopennesian War scenarios), and it seemed to work OK. I could not see any particular way of throwing the game as a defeat affects both losing factions. We did have trouble trying to remember where we have placed a dozen odd issue counters, but doubtless we will learn that in time. I noticed that arguements in the Athenian Assembly tended to carry over to ostracism in the Spartan Assembly.

Phil


Could I impose on you to write this two player variant up as bullet points and I will give it a go. I do not understand the Ostracism comment.

Thanks
Mark


If the players have a fight in the Athenian Assembly, the following Spartan Assembly is like to be acrimonious, leading to ostracism and point scoring rather than making some kind of deal.
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Philip Jelley wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
Hi, two games (First and Second Pelopennesian War scenarios), and it seemed to work OK. I could not see any particular way of throwing the game as a defeat affects both losing factions. We did have trouble trying to remember where we have placed a dozen odd issue counters, but doubtless we will learn that in time. I noticed that arguements in the Athenian Assembly tended to carry over to ostracism in the Spartan Assembly.

Phil


Could I impose on you to write this two player variant up as bullet points and I will give it a go. I do not understand the Ostracism comment.

Thanks
Mark


If the players have a fight in the Athenian Assembly, the following Spartan Assembly is like to be acrimonious, leading to ostracism and point scoring rather than making some kind of deal.


Interesting, I wonder what would happen if you sorted out Sparta first and then did Athens. I suspect the same as the dynamic is not changed. One thing to note is that Ostracism on the Spartan side is from a deck of cards point of view pretty 50/50, but in Athens the Demagogues have an advantage.

I look forward to some bullet points for how to conduct this two player version, sounds pretty straight forward.

Mark
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Philip Jelley
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15.10 Two Player Variant

Pericles may be played with two players without using Phormio.

~ One player controls the Aristocrats Athenian Faction and the Spartan Agiad Faction, except in the Theater Phase.

~ The other player controls the Athenian Democrats Faction and the Spartan Eurypontid Faction, except in the Threater Phase.

~ The controlling Athenian player controls both Athenian factions in the Theater Phase.

~ The controlling Spartan player controls both Spartan factions in the Theater Phase.

~ If at the start of the Theater Phase one player controls both the Athenian and the Spartan controlling factions he decides whether he will control the Athenian factions or the Spartan factions in the Theater Phase, with his opponent controlling the other two factions.

~ To determine victory add up the Honor of the Aristocrat and Agiad factions. Also add up the honour of the Democrat and Eurypontid factions. The player whose factions have the most combined Honor wins the game. If tied the Player whose Athenian faction has the most Honor wins the game.
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Philip Jelley wrote:
15.10 Two Player Variant

Pericles may be played with two players without using Phormio.

~ One player controls the the Aristocrats Athenian Faction and the Spartan Agiad Faction, except in the Theater Phase.

~ The other player controls the Athenian Democrats Faction and the Spartan Eurypontid Faction, except in the Threater Phase.

~ The controlling Athenian player controls both Athenian factions in the Theater Phase.

~ The controlling Spartan player controls both Spartan factions in the Theater Phase.

~ If at the start of the Theater Phase one player controls both the Athenian and the Spartan controlling factions he decides whether he will control the Athenian factions or the Spartan factions in the Theater Phase, with his opponent controlling the other two factions.

~ To determine victory add up the Honor of the Aristocrat and Agiad factions. Also add up the honour of the Democrat and Eurypontid factions. The player whose factions have the most combined Honor wins the game. If tied the Player whose Athenian faction has the most Honor wins the game.


Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
15.10 Two Player Variant

Pericles may be played with two players without using Phormio.

~ One player controls the the Aristocrats Athenian Faction and the Spartan Agiad Faction, except in the Theater Phase.

~ The other player controls the Athenian Democrats Faction and the Spartan Eurypontid Faction, except in the Threater Phase.

~ The controlling Athenian player controls both Athenian factions in the Theater Phase.

~ The controlling Spartan player controls both Spartan factions in the Theater Phase.

~ If at the start of the Theater Phase one player controls both the Athenian and the Spartan controlling factions he decides whether he will control the Athenian factions or the Spartan factions in the Theater Phase, with his opponent controlling the other two factions.

~ To determine victory add up the Honor of the Aristocrat and Agiad factions. Also add up the honour of the Democrat and Eurypontid factions. The player whose factions have the most combined Honor wins the game. If tied the Player whose Athenian faction has the most Honor wins the game.


Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark


Thanks, let me know how your game goes,

Phil
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark


How many words?

Phil
 
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Philip Jelley wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark


How many words?

Phil


How many do you need?
 
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Philip Jelley
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Not much, as the concept is fairly simple. All I really need is to turn the bullet points into numbered rules paragraphs, and add a short introduction. Probably 250-300 words.
 
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Philip Jelley wrote:
Not much, as the concept is fairly simple. All I really need is to turn the bullet points into numbered rules paragraphs, and add a short introduction. Probably 250-300 words.


Would it work better with any mnemonic counters? I'll tell Rodger 500 words.
 
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
Not much, as the concept is fairly simple. All I really need is to turn the bullet points into numbered rules paragraphs, and add a short introduction. Probably 250-300 words.


Would it work better with any mnemonic counters? I'll tell Rodger 500 words.


I do not see the need for counters. The players can hold the faction leader and king cards as a reminder of which factions they control. In the Theater Phase they will have the Athenian or Spartan issue counters and strategos blocks.
 
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Philip Jelley wrote:
15.10 Two Player Variant


I was thinking a new case C under 15.12 might be better.
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Philip Jelley
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MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
15.10 Two Player Variant

Pericles may be played with two players without using Phormio.

~ One player controls the the Aristocrats Athenian Faction and the Spartan Agiad Faction, except in the Theater Phase.

~ The other player controls the Athenian Democrats Faction and the Spartan Eurypontid Faction, except in the Threater Phase.

~ The controlling Athenian player controls both Athenian factions in the Theater Phase.

~ The controlling Spartan player controls both Spartan factions in the Theater Phase.

~ If at the start of the Theater Phase one player controls both the Athenian and the Spartan controlling factions he decides whether he will control the Athenian factions or the Spartan factions in the Theater Phase, with his opponent controlling the other two factions.

~ To determine victory add up the Honor of the Aristocrat and Agiad factions. Also add up the honour of the Democrat and Eurypontid factions. The player whose factions have the most combined Honor wins the game. If tied the Player whose Athenian faction has the most Honor wins the game.


Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark


Mark, did you get to play this? Any comments? When do you need this article, I could get it done this month.

Phil
 
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Philip Jelley wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
Philip Jelley wrote:
15.10 Two Player Variant

Pericles may be played with two players without using Phormio.

~ One player controls the the Aristocrats Athenian Faction and the Spartan Agiad Faction, except in the Theater Phase.

~ The other player controls the Athenian Democrats Faction and the Spartan Eurypontid Faction, except in the Threater Phase.

~ The controlling Athenian player controls both Athenian factions in the Theater Phase.

~ The controlling Spartan player controls both Spartan factions in the Theater Phase.

~ If at the start of the Theater Phase one player controls both the Athenian and the Spartan controlling factions he decides whether he will control the Athenian factions or the Spartan factions in the Theater Phase, with his opponent controlling the other two factions.

~ To determine victory add up the Honor of the Aristocrat and Agiad factions. Also add up the honour of the Democrat and Eurypontid factions. The player whose factions have the most combined Honor wins the game. If tied the Player whose Athenian faction has the most Honor wins the game.


Great, thanks... if you want to write this up in more detail I am pretty sure I can get it into c3i magazine under your byline.

I will probably try this out this weekend.

I hope you enjoyed the game...

Mark


Mark, did you get to play this? Any comments? When do you need this article, I could get it done this month.

Phil


Should happen this week. Between Ft Sumter in production and my Granddaughter not much else is getting done.
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Not sure if there has been any progress regarding the publication of this variant. After experiencing the same problem that most reviewers seemed to have encountered with the game (ie. high complexity/difficulty) and not being able to convince my friends to get this on the table after our first time (mind you all of us are COIN fanatics so go figure), I was more than excited to try this modification out.

We only got enough time for a short 2 turn session, with most of our time spent on reflecting on the changes as well as the game itself which is still new to us, but I can safely say that we can't wait till next time! Not only this variant helps eliminate the urge to throw one of your factions while focusing on the same city every turn, but it also helps with learning the game as you get to do more every turn. Obviously, at our stage the bots are still a valuable source of "inspiration" for the overall strategy to follow while we still struggle through the top layers of complexity and I'll probably give them a go once I get more comfortable with the basic rules.

The only significant downside we could find during our short campaign was that having to potentially swap sides every theater phase might kill the "mood"... For example, on turn 2 I had to pick a city after winning both assembly phases and was torn between picking a side as Athens had made some horrible blunders last turn and had won very few issues this turn while the Spartans were easily on the lead and with more than a few extra issues to spread around the map. Obviously the honour differential would remain roughly the same and both players would intuitively try their best with whatever means they had available, but we did have a bit of a discussion over this for future "reference". Alas, this is to be expected of any 1-3 player variant...

Anyways, my point is that this is an amazing variant and it has allowed me to put this game on the table again after many months of gathering dust. After a bit of reflecting on it at the end of the night, me and my friend both agreed that there is hardly anything we could do to improve on this apart from finding 2 more people to join us for an all-nighter, but till then we are more than happy to keep playing as is!

Thanks a lot mr Philip for your cleverness and of course thanks as well mr Mark for the amazing game.


Ps. Soon after my friend called it a night I went straight on the internet to order the Landmark Thucydides as suggested in another thread here. Even as a Greek the geography in the original text is sometimes hard to follow, but now that the book has arrived there is no excuse to having not read good ol' Thucy till the last page.


Kind regards from Naupactus

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Thanks for the note... I have had an embarrassment of riches lately as all of my games have been full up 4 players. I hope to get this variant into the next c3i...

Mark
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Philip Jelley
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doomis wrote:
Not sure if there has been any progress regarding the publication of this variant. After experiencing the same problem that most reviewers seemed to have encountered with the game (ie. high complexity/difficulty) and not being able to convince my friends to get this on the table after our first time (mind you all of us are COIN fanatics so go figure), I was more than excited to try this modification out.

We only got enough time for a short 2 turn session, with most of our time spent on reflecting on the changes as well as the game itself which is still new to us, but I can safely say that we can't wait till next time! Not only this variant helps eliminate the urge to throw one of your factions while focusing on the same city every turn, but it also helps with learning the game as you get to do more every turn. Obviously, at our stage the bots are still a valuable source of "inspiration" for the overall strategy to follow while we still struggle through the top layers of complexity and I'll probably give them a go once I get more comfortable with the basic rules.

The only significant downside we could find during our short campaign was that having to potentially swap sides every theater phase might kill the "mood"... For example, on turn 2 I had to pick a city after winning both assembly phases and was torn between picking a side as Athens had made some horrible blunders last turn and had won very few issues this turn while the Spartans were easily on the lead and with more than a few extra issues to spread around the map. Obviously the honour differential would remain roughly the same and both players would intuitively try their best with whatever means they had available, but we did have a bit of a discussion over this for future "reference". Alas, this is to be expected of any 1-3 player variant...

Anyways, my point is that this is an amazing variant and it has allowed me to put this game on the table again after many months of gathering dust. After a bit of reflecting on it at the end of the night, me and my friend both agreed that there is hardly anything we could do to improve on this apart from finding 2 more people to join us for an all-nighter, but till then we are more than happy to keep playing as is!

Thanks a lot mr Philip for your cleverness and of course thanks as well mr Mark for the amazing game.


Ps. Soon after my friend called it a night I went straight on the internet to order the Landmark Thucydides as suggested in another thread here. Even as a Greek the geography in the original text is sometimes hard to follow, but now that the book has arrived there is no excuse to having not read good ol' Thucy till the last page.


Kind regards from Naupactus ;)



Thanks Thanos, I find an occasional flash of genius to be the most rewarding part of game design.

Phil
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