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Subject: Does Pinned 88 Gun still fires ammo? rss

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William Jason Raynovich
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Hello,
Does an 88 Gun still fire ammo (i.e. waste an ammo point) if pinned?

 
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Jerry Tresman
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raynovich wrote:
Hello,
Does an 88 Gun still fire ammo (i.e. waste an ammo point) if pinned?




Good point , I have always played that on board units that require to maintain aim and track targets act like G! e.g they need explicit "orders" from Team Leaders and heavy weapon teams are normally trained to a higher level even if green or line units. MGs are slightly different as keeping firing when pinned is a natural defensive option and S and A fire is about volume and not necessarily accuracy and not as technical or coordinated, Team Leader/spotter , sometimes separate "firer" and Loader.

I would say no for Guns and Mortars but I am sure Ricky will chime in.
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Jeff Yeackle
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raynovich wrote:
Hello,
Does an 88 Gun still fire ammo (i.e. waste an ammo point) if pinned?


Anything with a Basic VOF which includes (H)eavy Weapons will continue to fire and expend ammo, even if pinned. You don't have to play it that way (even 13.2 Ammunition lists that as a option) but that's the way it was ruled by Ricky and Ben on CSW and I haven't come across anything contrary to that since.
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Bryan Felsher
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The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".
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William Jason Raynovich
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truep wrote:
The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".


And wasting ammo. . . .
 
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Jeff Yeackle
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raynovich wrote:
truep wrote:
The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".


And wasting ammo. . . .


That's just a matter of perspective. To the units on the ground I'm sure they don't think it's wasted since they're returning fire with everything they've got to survive the current situation they find themselves in. Now, for the bean counters back home...
 
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Jerry Tresman
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jyeackle wrote:
raynovich wrote:
truep wrote:
The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".


And wasting ammo. . . .


That's just a matter of perspective. To the units on the ground I'm sure they don't think it's wasted since they're returning fire with everything they've got to survive the current situation they find themselves in. Now, for the bean counters back home...


Jeff 13.2 doesn't mention anything about firing when pinned just the option to make ammo tracking optional.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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truep wrote:
The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".


Agreed however but my point was that whilst firing mortars and guns under suppressive fire is not efficient and there team commanders would be maximising weapon use and effectiveness, S and A weapons are still providing suppressive fire (the majority of fire from these type of weapons was not effective e.g. a kill ratio of less than 50,000 to 1) .

The gunners would be constantly adjusting their shot before firing , until they had a good fire for effect, they generally wouldn't be doing this whilst pinned.

The all pinned VOF represents lower quality , ammo reduction would occurs when firing for effect, e.g. on target.

The above is only in respect of enemy ammo use , US forces will need to cease fire.
 
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Jeff Yeackle
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Starman54 wrote:
jyeackle wrote:
raynovich wrote:
truep wrote:
The way I see it, "pinned" doesn't necessarily mean head ducked down, scared shitless, and firing without looking. I look at it as a counter which represents something dozens of counters would have been required to represent signifying anything from "scared shitless with head in the dirt" to "buddy had to go take a crap, and now I gotta operate this gun by myself". The point is, the quality of the units fire has diminished for one reason or another.

This reasoning, allows me to believe that a unit is firing an 88 gun even though he's "pinned".


And wasting ammo. . . .


That's just a matter of perspective. To the units on the ground I'm sure they don't think it's wasted since they're returning fire with everything they've got to survive the current situation they find themselves in. Now, for the bean counters back home...


Jeff 13.2 doesn't mention anything about firing when pinned just the option to make ammo tracking optional.


The reference to 13.2 was only to collaborate my statement that you didn't need to track ammo if you chose not to.

For a direct ruling regarding pinned units:

Richard Gray wrote:
Quote:
1) Do PINNED units expend ammo normally? (what is the reality behind the "All Pinned" VoF: unit hiding and no really firing; or unit wasting ammunition in ineffective fire?)

Yes, Pinned units expend ammo just like anyone else. They're just not doing it as effectively

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.ee6eec3/2918
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
I would say no for Guns and Mortars but I am sure Ricky will chime in.


Been some great responses here already. But to confirm, if a weapon with "trackable" ammo is firing, even if in a Pinned state, it is expending ammo.

An MG Team, or an 88, or whatever other weapon is not going to stop firing that primary weapon because they are receiving effective fire. They most assuredly will continue to expend ammo—just not as effectively.

Best,
Ricky
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Jerry Tresman
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I have not been applying that to Enemy Ammo , guess I have been increasing the difficulty levels.
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
I have not been applying that to Enemy Ammo , guess I have been increasing the difficulty levels.


You certainly have!
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John Gorski
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Preacher wrote:
An MG Team, or an 88, or whatever other weapon is not going to stop firing that primary weapon because they are receiving effective fire. They most assuredly will continue to expend ammo—just not as effectively.



Hence, the "All Pinned" VOF of +2
 
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