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Subject: GW will be feel the weight of the LEGION rss

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James
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There has been a lot of talk about whether this will hurt GW sales. Which it will, with out a doubt.

However, the talk is always in regards to whether or not SWL will be able to dethrone 40K. Which it will not.
40k is an aberration in the wargame community. It just isn't governed by the same rules that all other wargames must abide by. 40k has a following. The word to take note of is... following. It just doesn't have players, they are followers. But I digress.

I said GW will see a huge hurt to sales, and it will. However, I don't think this will be from any huge hit too 40k.
For awhile I am sure there will be a drop in 40k players who convert to SWL, for awhile. But as I said 40k has a following. So the hit will be moderate and these wont be people quitting 40k. More likely just those taking a break or deciding to play both.

No, the real hit will be towards GWs Age of Sigmar line. I believe its going to be crushed by Legion.

I am sure some may think that doesn't make sense. AoS is a fantasy/steam punkish game and SWL is sci-fi, so they don't even compete.

This is true, but its not the whole story.
AoS is a casual wargame. Its popularity is based soley on that, in my opinion. Its fast and simple, so its easy to get into. Its drawn a lot of new and for the most part "casual" gamers to the hobby.

However it has many downsides that SWL directly fixes.
AoS has a crap rules system, plain and simple.
It has little to no game balance.
The setting is an unkown IP, that's not very well fleshed out or really even that interesting.
Older models are well priced, but newer models are very expensive. Tournament play is broken and reduced to spamming and a very few net lists.
Its just all over the place. So while it was "hot", and it did bring a lot of new faces to the hobby. It doesn't have the quality to keep those players, so they aren't as dedicated to AoS as say 40k followers are to their wargame.

SWL, so far, looks to fix all of that.
Its a very well known IP that even the newest of wargamers knows instantly. That brand knows no equal. The setting is well known, and every wargamer can easily get into it and enjoy the story/fluff.
The rules look to be fairly simple, and easy for the new and casual wargamer. Yet I can already see far more depth in them (then AoS), which will keep interest far longer and build dedication to the brand.
The Pricing seems to be very reasonable, especially by wargaming standards.
Tournament play looks to be far far more balanced. And lets face it will be covered in many more stores then AoS is currently. Every store will want to get in on the next "x-wing".


I just think GW is going to be surprised how little AoS becomes after Legions hits the shelves. As will a lot of other wargame companies I am sure.
Regardless, this will be the wargame to watch. It will shake things up, and it will without a doubt be felt for years to come.
Even if it completely bombed, which I just don't see.
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Sean Howard
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You are welcome to your opinions, but think you have it all wrong.

The only competition AoS has is 40k, and that's because they are (now) similar, and while GW is releasing 40k models, they aren't releasing AoS models.

AoS is certainly not a casual game - 4 pages of rules, but they have some of the most expensive and complex models there are. There's likely nothing in Legion that will compare to Archaon, Arielle, Glottkin, or the Stardrake. It's hard to get excited about another Stormtrooper or AT-ST when compared to something like the Kharadron Overlords' flying steam boats and metal beards.

AoS also has help in the form of Warhammer Quest and Shadespire, not to mention that the next major campaign will include Slaanesh and the undead alliance - while Legion is still filling out the core units of the game. GW has its own ecosystem and probably won't be affected by what other games do or don't do, only what GW does or doesn't do.

While I have my reservations about Legion, I wish it all the best. As a BattleLore fan, I was initially against Runewars, but it turned out to be a very fun game. I think there is room for more wargames and I hope all of them are successful. While the market realities are such that for a newcomer to be successful, they must steal players away from another game, I see no reason to wish for it or take pride in it.

If anything will be hurt by Legion, it will be Warmachine, but only because it has already been losing players since Mk3 was released and Legion's tournament focus could make a comfortable home for them.
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Jim Patching
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I think Legion looks decent but I don't think it's going to sweep all before it. Only really having two factions is a draw back and I'm not sure how interesting those factions will be to collect. Don't get me wrong, I love Stormtroopers but I don't know about painting up a whole army of essentially the same guy. The rebels are just dudes in cargo pants. As seems to be the case in the UK, the price is on a par if not higher than Games Workshop prices.
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Norman Hale
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@Jim, I hope they have armies for all the bigger battles from the series. That would leave room for custom battles ...... Ewoks vs Gungans shake
 
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Cracky McCracken
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Has there really been a lot of talk about legion hurting 40k sales?

It won't even make a dent. Legion's wonky scale pisses me off personally. It would have been smarter to make it in the same scale as IA. No way am I collecting a second set of FFG Star Wars minis. IA hasn't been cheap to collect.

Runewars Miniatures Game might have made GW take notice, but I don't think it's really hurting them either.

I do like Star Wars: Armada however, I'm building up my fleets. If anything has curtailed my GW spending lately it's been Armada.
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Tyson K
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I feel like those that have already invested into GW games aren't going to be jumping ship. I think this is directed at people who have been somewhat interested in minis games but never took the leap. The Star Wars licence might just push those people into picking up a core set or two. So short term, no I don't think it will have any effect on any games workshop games. Long term, it may take away new potential customers and in the end have a negative effect. We will see, Legion could suck for all we know and die instantly.
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Hubert AMG
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All fair points...
I wouldn't be worried about GW. It's different league/size/experience or even different target (customers).
What Legion might be challenged with - is a positioning it as an infantry war game (lack of mighty, big miniatures, that any other war system has (even RuneWars)have.
GW has developed the system to the extend (limit? ) - where we have everything from small pods, to all different infantry, transport... basically - ground/air/armor/magic - you name it.

X-wing - small fighters game
Armada - big boys
Imperial Assault - cross-over (boardgame with skirmish) - few nice/big minis
Legion - miniature war game... just tell me the scale.

If it's only infantry - not interested (even though I love SW and know much more about the universe than in case of GW).
If transportation (ground/air) shows up - I will have a look.

At the end of the day - it's SW, FFG and these two go along quite good - reaching deep into our pockets. I am sure - there is a market for it.
How big? I am interested to see that.
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Tyson K
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dorywalski wrote:
All fair points...
I wouldn't be worried about GW. It's different league/size/experience or even different target (customers).
What Legion might be challenged with - is a positioning it as an infantry war game (lack of mighty, big miniatures, that any other war system has (even RuneWars)have.
GW has developed the system to the extend (limit? ) - where we have everything from small pods, to all different infantry, transport... basically - ground/air/armor/magic - you name it.

X-wing - small fighters game
Armada - big boys
Imperial Assault - cross-over (boardgame with skirmish) - few nice/big minis
Legion - miniature war game... just tell me the scale.

If it's only infantry - not interested (even though I love SW and know much more about the universe than in case of GW).
If transportation (ground/air) shows up - I will have a look.

At the end of the day - it's SW, FFG and these two go along quite good - reaching deep into our pockets. I am sure - there is a market for it.
How big? I am interested to see that.


It has been all but announced that AT-STs and Snowspeeders will be available soon after release. We may not get any AT-ATs but there will be some decent chunkyness.
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Nigel McNaughton
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And you can guarantee people will make their own AT-ATs, even if just a foot or two.
 
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Carlos Saldanha
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@OP, bahahahahah, what a joke!

Quote:
There has been a lot of talk about whether this will hurt GW sales. Which it will, with out a doubt.


What talk?! This game is not out yet so what is there to talk about when there are ZERO numbers to talk about?!

Quote:
However, the talk is always in regards to whether or not SWL will be able to dethrone 40K. Which it will not.
40k is an aberration in the wargame community. It just isn't governed by the same rules that all other wargames must abide by. 40k has a following. The word to take note of is... following. It just doesn't have players, they are followers.


I don't understand... are you talking about the Star Wars cult?! The one cult that has fanboys that foam from their mouths when they hear the names George and Lucas put together? That say Episode VII is better than the prequals when is just recycling Ep. IV for profit? Is that the folloing you're talking about?!
Oh, but I digress...

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yada yada, doom doom, GW will suffer, AOS is bad, Legion is good


Well, let me tell you something,

Have you seen all the rules for Legion? How can you compare a "game" in Legion with just a preview of it?

Looking at the preview and those rules, do you really, honestly, remotely even, think this game will ever shadow 40K? LOL You must be really new, then!

Comparing Legion with the actual state of AoS is the same as me comparing "somenewcardgamefromanothercompany" with Star Wars LCG from Fantasy Flight Games and tell that "somenewcardgame..." will just obliterate Star Wars LCG. You can't beat dead horses, they're already dead.
AoS is being reworked slowly by GW. GW put their effort in the new 8th Edition for 40K and it's been a huge success.

Also, there are several good miniatures games in the market that Legion has to fight with, and none of them are at the same level of 40K.

Legion has to surpass Infinity. It's not difficult if Legion puts up a good OP pack.

Legion has to surpass Warmachine/Hordes. Now, that's something I'd really love to see!
WarmacHordes is one of the best if not the best miniatures game ruleswise and tournament-wise. They work hard for that. Their miniatures are hedious, their materials are dated, their designs are boring... but their game and rules are solid. And from what I and all of you saw from Legion, they have a long way to walk.

Finally, 40K.
You talk about the cult status (followers) 40K has.
Well, let me remind you that 40K is not a movie neither a book. 40K was always a game. It has books and "movies" (with some big ""), but 40K was, is and will always be about a game. A game of well designed miniatures made with the best materials in a market no one can compete with.

So, you think because it's Star Wars that will shadow a game that is on the market for 25+ years, that achieved that cult status by being "THE GAME", that has the best designed miniatures, the best set of options, the best plastics, no one in those 25+ years ever came close to their standards... do you think a little league player like FFG can compete with that?!
Even in the shadow years of 40K (7th Edition) only X-Wing topped 40K sales by ICv2 numbers. And I'm talking a real dark time for 40K when no one wanted to play the game.
And you're talking that Legion can, for some strange reason I still don't understand, can come close of 40K with a new 8th Edition that was designed and tested by players, that the company made effort to see that as the best product in the market (gamewise, ruleswise), that the company opened a Community page and opened direct dialog with their fanbase... do you really think FFG can top that with a miniatures game that is poorly designed, just because it's "Star Wars"?! Who is the follower after all??

Make a reality check, please!
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Jim Patching
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I'm pretty sure GW are going to be paying attention to Legion though ... I mean, it's Star Wars. It's definitely going to sell. I might even be tempted to give it a go, unless the price in the UK ends up being horrendous. But my gut feeling is it isn't going to seriously trouble any of the GW lines, at least not in the long term.

I also wonder how much Star Wars fatigue might be building up? I mean, how many times can you get excited about recreating your favourite Star Wars moments on the table top? I've certainly got a "been there, done that" feeling building up about it all.
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Stuart Holttum
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
I don't understand... are you talking about the Star Wars cult?! The one cult that has fanboys that foam from their mouths when they hear the names George and Lucas put together? That say Episode VII is better than the prequals when is just recycling Ep. IV for profit? Is that the folloing you're talking about?!


Fanboys, eh? Thank goodness that there was nothing in the post that followed that was even remotely "fanboyish".....

Seriously though - and this is from a gamer who was there for the 1st Rogue Trader edition, with "womble" space marines and metal Orks - I think there is a significant chance that Legion WILL manage to eclipse 40k. Not immediately, not even in a year or so, but eventually I think it has a good chance.

40k does have a vast amount of "fluff" behind it, I agree. But that could be one of its greatest weaknesses. Ask the person in the street to talk about Vader, or Horus, and guess which one they will know? Ask many gamers the same question, and while more will know the name of Horus, fewer will know much about him. Only the dedicated 40k gamers will be able to tell you who is is, why he was important. Whereas everyone knows who Vader is.

Its that audience that Legion is going to be able to capitalise on - that vast crowd of people who have been brought up on Star Wars, Clone Wars, with the toys and the books and so on. Many of them will have moved from lego star wars to 40k - but is that because 40K is essentially that much better than the Star Wars universe? Or because they grew up with the Star Wars universe and wanted to play with spaceman figures?

It sounds like I'm knocking 40k: that's not my intention. But like any game system, it requires a BIG buy-in from the new consumers, both financial, and in time spent understanding the universe. Legion will have all the latter covered from day 1: every person comparing the boxes in the FLGS will know who the Empire and Rebellion are - very few will know what the Tau are, or whether the Dark Angels are goodies or baddies.

Given the choice between a Legion starter set, or a 40k starter set, which do you suppose the dad and his 10-year old are more likely to pick up on their first visit to a game store? Which, indeed, is likely to be the instinctive choice of the gamer, looking for their first foray into SF gaming?

40k may have better models, more fluff, better rules....may indeed be "better". But a lot of its position in the field has been (as you say) down to 25 years of dedicated push from a company with an aggressive marketing strategy, with (for the most part) little or no realistic competition. As a franchise with brand recognition, 40k has nothing compared to Star Wars - and it is that global awareness that will be Legion's biggest strength.

Doesn't mean Legion will definitely beat 40k, or indeed any of the other game systems you mention. But don't underestimate the draw of the name, and the way it is so embedded in popular culture in a way that 40k can only dream of.

We have interesting times ahead!
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Niklas S
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I don't know which of the games that Will be the largest in sales but I started to play 40k with Rouge Trader and stoped playing 40k because of the attitude of Games Workshop.
They seem to hate their customers...
I Will buy Legion and then we Will see what happens in the future.
I think that competition is good from our - the customers - perspective. No matter who Will have the pole position in sales, competition keeps manufacturers on their toes and force them to make better stuff.
May the force be with you
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Carlos Saldanha
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panzer-attack wrote:
I'm pretty sure GW are going to be paying attention to Legion though ... I mean, it's Star Wars. It's definitely going to sell. I might even be tempted to give it a go, unless the price in the UK ends up being horrendous. But my gut feeling is it isn't going to seriously trouble any of the GW lines, at least not in the long term.

I also wonder how much Star Wars fatigue might be building up? I mean, how many times can you get excited about recreating your favourite Star Wars moments on the table top? I've certainly got a "been there, done that" feeling building up about it all.


Two good points here:

1. First, it's not Star Wars!
I'm a SW fanboy myself, 'though I don't hate Lucas like the other foaming creatures, I put the whole prequel trilogy much higher than Ep. VII Recycling the Sith.

There are two main faults in this game, SW Legion, from a thematic point:
-it's not LEGION at all (you'll not see AT-AT's in this game, ence, not that much Legion about it)
-it's not representative of SW movies
Go ahead and tell me in which movie you saw a bunch of rebels with Luke Skywalker leading them fighting Vader and a bunch of Imperial ST? I don't recal that in any movie... alas, might we see some Ewoks fighting ST and that's a different story but... FFG might know as well that nobody wants to play that sort of scenario.

So, this concept Legion offers is thematically wrong, and its name won't represent its game.

2. Fatigue.
X-Wing was a breakthrough because the game was groundbreaking. You look at Armada, both saleswise and playerwise, and that game is a desert.
Star Wars LCG. Came out strong, promissing and all that... is the LCG that has the lowest headcount, even LOTR LCG without any king of OP has more players than SW LCG. (also, the game is a flop)

So yes, let's all see how many of you will buy the core set, play a couple of games and then put the game aside because # reasons, one of them being fatigue, other being that this game isn't groundbreaking enough to make a seasoned player opt for it instead of other better GAMES.

Sudden wrote:
I don't know which of the games that Will be the largest in sales but I started to play 40k with Rouge Trader and stoped playing 40k because of the attitude of Games Workshop.


Maybe you should read their approach with the WH40K 8th Edition and how things changed in the company when they, GW, mentioned an apology to their fanbase and distanced themselves from the "old GW" with their new approach.
Go to the Community page and see for yourself. Update your information because it's wrong.
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Charlie Theel
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Legion will do very well, but I don't see it hurting 40k or AoS too much. It certainly will a little though.

I think GW's outlook is very positive. 40k 8th is doing extraordinary. Necromunda is coming back strong. Shadespire is just around the corner and going to be a new gateway drug into AoS. Most importantly, Shadespire is perhaps the best game I've played this year.
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Stu Holttum wrote:
Fanboys, eh? Thank goodness that there was nothing in the post that followed that was even remotely "fanboyish".....


Read my previous post to know why I consider myself a fanboy but distance myself from the mouth-foaming creatures I've mentioned.


Quote:
40k does have a vast amount of "fluff" behind it, I agree. But that could be one of its greatest weaknesses. Ask the person in the street to talk about Vader, or Horus, and guess which one they will know? Ask many gamers the same question, and while more will know the name of Horus, fewer will know much about him. Only the dedicated 40k gamers will be able to tell you who is is, why he was important. Whereas everyone knows who Vader is.


I've spent more time talking about the Heresy in game stores than any SW issue in those same stores.
For the casual person yes, SW is known. Is Legion being targeted to the casual person? Guess not. So who cares?! What I know is that I'll not talk about Vader crossing swords with Luke on a random forest while Rebels shoot at Imperials because that didn't existed in the movies!!

So, that argument proves nothing.


Quote:
Its that audience that Legion is going to be able to capitalise on - that vast crowd of people who have been brought up on Star Wars, Clone Wars, with the toys and the books and so on. Many of them will have moved from lego star wars to 40k - but is that because 40K is essentially that much better than the Star Wars universe? Or because they grew up with the Star Wars universe and wanted to play with spaceman figures?


I don't know what kind of progress is that... I never knew a player that went from Legos to 40K.
I know some of them who did the opposite path.

And once a casual evolves into a gamer, he/she will play the better game. And Legion will not be the better game, not when 40K is booming again and taking players that have migrated to WarmacHordes when WMH was the better game.

Quote:
It sounds like I'm knocking 40k: that's not my intention. But like any game system, it requires a BIG buy-in from the new consumers, both financial, and in time spent understanding the universe. Legion will have all the latter covered from day 1: every person comparing the boxes in the FLGS will know who the Empire and Rebellion are - very few will know what the Tau are, or whether the Dark Angels are goodies or baddies.

Given the choice between a Legion starter set, or a 40k starter set, which do you suppose the dad and his 10-year old are more likely to pick up on their first visit to a game store? Which, indeed, is likely to be the instinctive choice of the gamer, looking for their first foray into SF gaming?


You never worked on a LGS, did you?!

People who come looking for a game come looking for something in mind. People ask for a specific game. Then people tend to make their own research.
In our LGS people ask for Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons or medieval games. Then, the golden question arrives: how many players are playing this game?
And when that question is asked, those persons immediately make their choice!
So you better work that playerbase because having Star Wars written on the box won't save the game per se, and if a potential player wants to play a game and sees that 4 people are playing Legion in a LGS filled with 20 people playing 40K, that potential player may buy the Legion core set but will end up playing 40K (or the game that has the most playerpool in that LGS) in a couple of months.


Quote:
40k may have better models, more fluff, better rules....may indeed be "better". But a lot of its position in the field has been (as you say) down to 25 years of dedicated push from a company with an aggressive marketing strategy, with (for the most part) little or no realistic competition. As a franchise with brand recognition, 40k has nothing compared to Star Wars - and it is that global awareness that will be Legion's biggest strength.

Doesn't mean Legion will definitely beat 40k, or indeed any of the other game systems you mention. But don't underestimate the draw of the name, and the way it is so embedded in popular culture in a way that 40k can only dream of.


As mentioned above, brands don't sell games. Games do.
Maybe because you're talking about a consumer perspective. From someone who worked on a LGS, that's not the case.
That example suits if I want to sell a Pop, I'd sell more Pops of a single SW character than all Pops from all the 40K characters (if there were any). Period. Hands down. That's not the case with games. And you have lots of examples to look for: Armada, Star Wars LCG, even the RPG! In my LGS people don't know nothing about the SW RPG system from FFG but they indeed know and played D&D and Pathfinder. So, what's your point? Shouldn't the SW RPG system sell alot and dethrone D&D, or even Pathfinder?! No. Because in the end, players will be players and players always play the better game.
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
....brands don't sell games. Games do.


Yep. That's why monopoly is such a poor seller.

 
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charlest wrote:
Shadespire is just around the corner and going to be a new gateway drug into AoS. Most importantly, Shadespire is perhaps the best game I've played this year.


I think that and Frostgrave: Ghost Archipelago are where my pocket money's going to be going this year in terms of miniature games.

oDESGOSTO wrote:
alas, might we see some Ewoks fighting ST and that's a different story but... FFG might know as well that nobody wants to play that sort of scenario.


I would love to play that sort of scenario! But man, that seems like a game designer's nightmare - how to stat up furry teddy bears with sticks so that they're good enough to take on the cream of the Imperial army

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charlest wrote:
Legion will do very well, but I don't see it hurting 40k or AoS too much. It certainly will a little though.

I think GW's outlook is very positive. 40k 8th is doing extraordinary. Necromunda is coming back strong. Shadespire is just around the corner and going to be a new gateway drug into AoS. Most importantly, Shadespire is perhaps the best game I've played this year.


I see Shadespire as GW's run on X-wing
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I'm more worried FFG keeping the Star Wars license is going to be negatively impacted by Legion flopping.


 
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
I've spent more time talking about the Heresy in game stores than any SW issue in those same stores.
For the casual person yes, SW is known. Is Legion being targeted to the casual person? Guess not. So who cares?! What I know is that I'll not talk about Vader crossing swords with Luke on a random forest while Rebels shoot at Imperials because that didn't existed in the movies!!


I'm curious - do you then ONLY play 40k battles that are directly drawn from the source material? You never play any "what-if?" at all? I only ask because I don't think I know any gamer who purely plays "historical" battles (if you know what I mean). Not saying you are wrong to do so, just unique in my experience!

oDESGOSTO wrote:

You never worked on a LGS, did you?!


Actually yes - not currently.

oDESGOSTO wrote:

People who come looking for a game come looking for something in mind. People ask for a specific game. Then people tend to make their own research.
In our LGS people ask for Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons or medieval games. Then, the golden question arrives: how many players are playing this game?
And when that question is asked, those persons immediately make their choice!


Definitely not my experience - again, perhaps this is specific to your experience. True, a lot of customers come in looking for something specific - though it seems in the case of stores you work in, they are not really looking for a particular product, since they are easily swayed towards "what everyone else is playing".

oDESGOSTO wrote:

In my LGS people don't know nothing about the SW RPG system from FFG but they indeed know and played D&D and Pathfinder. So, what's your point? Shouldn't the SW RPG system sell alot and dethrone D&D, or even Pathfinder?! No. Because in the end, players will be players and players always play the better game.


Hmm. You are basing your experience (apparently) on what happens in your particular store. To be honest, I have to say its not a store that I would especially want to visit, given that the mentality seems to be to force customers towards whatever is the Flavour of the Month.

I'm also intrigued at your contention that "players always play the better game". If that were the case, then everybody today would be playing just one game, no? Patently not the case - though I accept that in a store where there is a steering towards one game and ostracism of those who do not wish to partake, it may SEEM that everyone plays a single game.

Gamers play games for a lot of reasons, and which game is "better" is almost entirely subjective. The fluff. The scale. The ruleset. The armies. The painting and modelling opportunities. Probably more, but those are the main ones. I don't doubt from your posts that you are positive that 40k is a better game than any other - and great stuff! Genuinely happy for you that you have found a game that ticks all your boxes! But please, DO remain aware that there ARE people in the world - and yes, gamers and players included! - who have different tastes. From my perspective, I find the 40k background to be derivative, cliched, and juvenile, and (mainly for that reason) it is not a game I choose to play - but I have no issues with other people playing and enjoying it: good for them!
 
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John Middleton
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If Legion turns out to be as crap of a game as Runewars, there is nothing to even talk about.

Some people like it, which is true of most any game, but it is dead everywhere I game and talk/read about games online.

The elves that people were waiting for, don't seem to have done much of anything.


Legion has Star Wars, that's about it and, frankly, I am about Star Wars-ed out at this point. The new movies have been garbage, but make money in the same vein as the Marvel movies. People watch them and forget about them a week later. Rogue One seemed neat at first, but every single character besides Vader is completely forgettable. Heck, most people forget who they are in the middle of the film!


If this had been an army based game at a smaller mini scale that offered huge battles, it could have been great. But another Star Wars skirmish....yawn. I still have all my old West End metal minis for Rebel vs Trooper battles using an actual real set of wargame rules and not a glorified card game. Lots of people I talk to are not happy after investing in IA skirmish, to be forced to change out, and rebuy, just for FFG cards and components.

But hey, maybe it will take off. It won't ever reach the level of 40k though. Nothing ever will, as that ship sailed years ago, and the game is firmly lodged in wargaming at the roots.
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Carlos Saldanha
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John said it all! Thread closed! laugh


@Stuart,

I don't even play 40K, not yet...
Last time I've played 40K was in the transition from 5th edition to 6th. And I've dropped it. In my LGS, the exodus was huge. Everyone dropped it for the "better game", WarmacHordes. And also Flames of War, but FOW is a whole different beast, it has its own target audience and its community is loyal to remain in the game no matter the quality of the rules.

But 40K due to their poor rules created a mass exodus here. We had tournaments announced and two players showing up. There was no interest in the game.

The first tournament in the 8th Edition got around 6~8 people. And that's really good when the only source books available were the Indexes. People got interested in 40K again due to the huge amount of rules changes and also the change in the company approach to their customer-base. And now 40K is booming again.
On the other hand, with all these shenanigans with WMH Mark3 and the CID and all that stuff back-and-forth, WMH is dying pretty fast, the once "better game" is now becoming the not-so-better-anymore and giving its place to 40K.

Also, we don't point customers into flavours-of-the-month. We point customers to communities.
We have a great X-Wing community, always playing weekly casual and bi-monthly tournaments.
We had a great WMH community with a Press Ganger allocated to the store and a neat system providing new players all the support they need with bi-annual escalation leagues.
We didn't had that for 40K and AOS. And without any kind of "presence" in the store 40K was still the best selling category.
Right now players are getting into 40K and hopefully something in the vain of what was made with X-Wing and WMH can be achieved in 40K.

But... there's a but here... we always told clients the games that are played in the store. We had several sittuations of people getting into a game (AGOT LCG), investing and then the player pool simply disappearing from the store. So we have the caution to tell players that "system X is cool and we sell it but there aren't many players in that system".

In our LGS Magic the Gathering has double the players that Force of Will + Android Netrunner + AGOT all put together. So players always play the better game. I also prefer AGOT over the other but Magic is Magic, is solid, is a game that will always have a playerpool active in some dark corner of the world, is universal. As John said, is lodged in the gaming roots. Is a brand, right now a brand that, no matter how good or bad you may think of WOTC, inspires confidence and players will remain loyal to that game while they have this confidence in the product and the company.

That's something that GW achieved over the years, once again, liking it or not, and now they're focusing on getting their clients back and make things right to revert the exodus from the previous editions. They're even working in AOS to turn it into something more appealing.

So yes, for me an active player base is much more important than the fluff, the looks, etc.
Rules first. Materials second. Playerpool third.

I sold today my lot of Wrath of Kings.
Rules, a heck of a gaming system, really new and groundbreaking.
Materials, the CMON plastic, not the best and not much to convert from.
Players... none... crickets...
So, no matter how good the game is, the fluff, the looks, the miniatures, if there are no players to play with, what can I do with that game?!

Now, about Legion (for me).
Cool theme.
Skirmish... meh! I'd rather have a different game, in a smaller scale with large battles that could indeed represent the Legion in its name.
Miniatures, ok. Plastic, let's see if it's Runewars plastic or model-kit plastic, because if it's Runewars plastic they can stop right now because no one will buy the game for its miniatures if it's THAT plastic.
Rules, for what I see is a huge NO. As Runewars and ASOI&F proved, boardgame designers can't design miniature games right.

So, will I invest in a niche game because it's Star Wars? No.
Will I buy it for its miniatures? Only if the plastic is right.
What will I do with its miniatures if I buy them? Play them in other games.
Do I see a place in this game as it is, comparing it with the current amount of similar games available to be played? No. Lack of groundbreaking factor, wrong scale, hypothetical scenarios not representing what seen in the movies, rules are too clunky, glorified components just for the sake of components (custom dice).

Time will tell... but this game will never shade 40K, not as 40K is right now, strong and thriving.
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Stuart Holttum
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oDESGOSTO wrote:
In my LGS, the exodus (from 40k) was huge. Everyone dropped it for the "better game", WarmacHordes. And also Flames of War....40K due to their poor rules created a mass exodus here. We had tournaments announced and two players showing up. There was no interest in the game.

......
... but (Legion) will never shade 40K, not as 40K is right now, strong and thriving.


And there's the rub: on the one hand, you tell me 40k dropped to zero interest in your area.....then say that Legion will never outdo 40k! I'm not sure how you can reconcile those two views?

40k thrived before. Then it dipped. Now it thrives. (Some would say that cycle has happened more than once). But point being: the game HAS crashed in the past. Which means there is nothing to say it will not do so again, and equally nothing to say it will be able to come back again if it does.

I don't want to see either game fail. It just amuses me greatly to hear the number of people boldly asserting that 40k will NEVER lose its crown and dip from the pinnacle of gaming perfection that it is.....especially when at the same time they tell me how that exact same thing happened not too many years ago!

- - - - -

Incidentally, I'm very sorry to hear that you felt you had to dump a game system you enjoyed because of lack of opponents. I feel the pain having invested in a number of games that nobody around me wishes to play - but have you considered solo wargaming? There are many AI systems around (and not too hard to modify one, or build your own), and solo gaming can be just as enjoyable as facing an opponent - and in many ways more so!
 
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