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Subject: TM vs GP rss

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JaeSung Choi
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I know these games are different and not want to offense. I'm not saying 'Which game is Better', but 'Which game is better fit me'. I had many similar games, but they are all gone when i decide which game is much funnier.

Caverna, Agricola, Feast for Odin (Well, These are different games. But for me, it's not that different. Odin is survived. I like job cards and don't want to competing with family members. That's why i choose odin.)

Arkham Horror, Eldritch Horror (Selling both when i bought MoM second edition)

Clank, Clank in space (Clank in space is survived. Faction and escape pod and so on.)

TM and GP is almost similar for me. There are many different elements like research board, modular board, new factions.. but It's not that different. like Uwe's games

In my opinion, Maybe i'll love GP more than TM. There are some reasons.

1. Research is much funnier than cult. Cult is just score, but research has different powers.

2. Fantasy Theme is not bad, but hey. This is SPACE

3. I'm usually playing with 2p and GP's 2p is not that good. Maybe GP is slightly better than TM cause research and modular board.

But on the other hand, New elements make this game too fiddly to playing with fun. That's why I put GP on cart but can't decide purchase. Maybe buying after some playing GP is best choice, but unfortunately i don't have any chance to play it before i bought.

How about you? Is there anyone who agonize with this?
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K S
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I haven't had a chance to play either game yet, but thanks for asking this question, because I would also like to hear what others say.
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HenningK
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I posted my thoughts elsewhere, but here is how I see it:

- GP is even more complex than TM which is already quite rules-heavy.
- GP has a modular board which adds variability.
- The modular board and the favour tile randomization in GP require more improvisation. You can't quite learn opening theories like in TM. Is that good or bad? You decide.
- Shrunken map and "dummy-player-threshold-scoring" make GP much better for 2 players.
- Science track in GP feels much more integrated than the cult track in TM.
- The power tokens are more dynamic in GP; you lose them more often, but also have multiple ways to (re)gain them.
- GP has an added solo mode that, while even more complicated than the multiplayer game, works very well.
- Theme feels slightly more appropriate in GP, but both are games where mechanics come first.
- Graphic design is better in TM. I also prefer the wooden components of TM.

In many ways, GP feels like a deliberate attempt to fix the most common criticisms of TM. So, which do I prefer? No idea actually, but I am pretty sure I won't play GP 85 times like I did with TM. It's harder to teach and so similar to TM that I suppose the guys I play TM with will often just prefer to play more TM.
For people who mainly play with 2 (or solo) and don't mind the added complexity, GP is the better game.
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Kristof Bodric
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Trantor42 wrote:
... I am pretty sure I won't play GP 85 times like I did with TM.


I'm doing my best to catch up with my TM plays :)

But to get back on topic, GP is better optimised for 2 players than TM.
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Alexandre Santos
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For me the 2p tips the issue in favor or GP.

But really, why not wait for GP to come out so that reviews are produced, or you get a chance to try it?
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Colin Marsh
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if you are going to be playing a lot of 2 player than I would say that Gaia has the edge. 2 player TM is honestly better than a lot of people give it credit for but GP has the edge there.

if you are going to be playing with a group that is already experienced with TM than I also think GP will be a good purchase and will be a game that your group will really enjoy. GP addresses a lot of commonly held complaints about TM - sameyness in terms of strategies, the cult track board feeling tacked on, scaling in terms of number of players...

that said if you are planning to get this game and attempt to play it with folks that aren't familiar with TM I would probably stay away. GP is significantly more complicated than TM; teaching it to new players is really daunting and there's a lot to take in for a first time player. TM is pretty tough the 1st time and GP takes that to another level.
 
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Robert
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ZombieCooKiE wrote:
3. I'm usually playing with 2p and GP's 2p is not that good. Maybe GP is slightly better than TM cause research and modular board
I guess this is a typo and you meant to write "TM's 2p is not that good"? As you don't know GP's 2p, it would seem odd to make a statement like you did.

I haven't played any 2p games of GP, but they put some things in which make me guess that 2p GP will be better in relation to 4p GP than 2p TM is to 4p TM.

So far, I have no idea whether GP will supersede TM for me (talking about 4p games). Finding this out will require a dozen or more games of GP

In order to beat the number TM games I played so far, any game needs to meet the same two criteria as with TM:
a) the feeling that this is the best game I know over the course of four years or more
b) an online version like terra.snellman.net
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JaeSung Choi
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Trantor42 wrote:
In many ways, GP feels like a deliberate attempt to fix the most common criticisms of TM. So, which do I prefer? No idea actually, but I am pretty sure I won't play GP 85 times like I did with TM. It's harder to teach and so similar to TM that I suppose the guys I play TM with will often just prefer to play more TM.
For people who mainly play with 2 (or solo) and don't mind the added complexity, GP is the better game.


Thank you for detail answer. Maybe my play group can handle some complex elements. I'm not pretty sure i will play GP as many as like TM (almost 100 times. not exact record, but maybe that scale.), But worth for try.

AlexFS wrote:
For me the 2p tips the issue in favor or GP.

But really, why not wait for GP to come out so that reviews are produced, or you get a chance to try it?


Yes, I Know best choice is wait till play it. but as i say i can't play it before i buy. There are so few players in where i live. Even the folks who usually play with me, not much interest about GP. And my friends playing only what i have. Board game is not well known hobby in here. So many adults in this area think that is childish which is playing board game.

colinmarsh wrote:
if you are going to be playing a lot of 2 player than I would say that Gaia has the edge. 2 player TM is honestly better than a lot of people give it credit for but GP has the edge there.


Yes, That's why i keep agonize.

DocCool wrote:
ZombieCooKiE wrote:
3. I'm usually playing with 2p and GP's 2p is not that good. Maybe GP is slightly better than TM cause research and modular board
I guess this is a typo and you meant to write "TM's 2p is not that good"? As you don't know GP's 2p, it would seem odd to make a statement like you did.


Yes, That is typo. I didn't know that

And I almost agree about (a). Not the best game, but definitely top 3 game. That is why i have so much anticipation about GP.
 
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J K
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While I love TM, the tech board sells GP for me, it's very similar to Scepter of Zavandor which I also love!
 
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Jan Kahánek
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I have played plenty TM games(500+) and just about 20 GP games.

I love both.

TM is the best game ever for me... no doubt - no. 1 !

GP is great for me and I love it at the moment, however I need more matches to make an opinion. More and more I play GP, I feel that I can have a little problem with one aspect. We are less and less focusing on some of the technology tracks. Part of this game seems to be unplayable if you are more experienced. We now play only 4/6 technology tracks if we want to be succesfull. I hope we have just not revealed the true potencial of these 2 tracks. However, if I find this part of game little more balanced, it will be definitelly a "must buy" and maybe it will dethrone TM from the 1st position in my personal ladder.
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ljazz m
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I'm curious Kathy which two tracks you guys ignored.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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ljazz07 wrote:
I'm curious Kathy which two tracks you guys ignored.


Same here.
 
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Robin Zigmond
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ZombieCooKiE wrote:

AlexFS wrote:
For me the 2p tips the issue in favor or GP.

But really, why not wait for GP to come out so that reviews are produced, or you get a chance to try it?


Yes, I Know best choice is wait till play it. but as i say i can't play it before i buy.


I think that you have misunderstood what Alex was saying - probably due to the language barrier

He wasn't suggesting that *you* should play GP before making a decision. The game isn't even out yet, and the comments you see on here from some talking about having played it are from those who have been involved in playtesting. I'm not sure anyone (outside the designers and publishers, and those very close to them, I assume) has played the final version yet. But it will be released within a couple of months, and after that you should see plenty of reviews being posted, and other impressions of those who have played it. And Alex is suggesting - correctly - that those will give you a much better idea of whether it is worth getting GP or not.

(Me, I made up my mind long ago - TM is my favourite game, and everything I've read about GP tells me that it will be an even better version. I do worry I'll get it to the table less, but that's rarely stopped me buying games before whistle)
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Jan Kahánek
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ljazz07 wrote:
I'm curious Kathy which two tracks you guys ignored.


yellow and blue (income tracks) ... we were not succesfull - if there was an interesting advanced tech it became more valuable, but noone ended 1st when focused on these tracks. Different setups...
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Robert
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Interesting. Clearly you played way more test games than I did, but in my games playing the blue track (which gives income for knowledge/research) was quite a success strategy. It pays for itself after some steps, and then for advances in other sciences as well.
 
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Jan Kahánek
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DocCool wrote:
Interesting. Clearly you played way more test games than I did, but in my games playing the blue track (which gives income for knowledge/research) was quite a success strategy. It pays for itself after some steps, and then for advances in other sciences as well.


Yes. It pays off, but in our experience other tech trees pay off a bit more. Navigation and Gaiaforming or Terraforming are crucial for making positions on the map especially in early phase of the game. You can replace navi with QICs green tree. In my opinion the income techs pay off later, but it can be too late in 4p game. However everything depends on playstyle of other players - all in our group play pretty agressivelly. We have realized that if you are not spreading quickly you usually have a problem to find a planet to colonize. The fight for the map positions is tougher. Usually it didn't pay off is someone was waiting too long or was building to the height instead of spreading on the map. Main goals are to colonize maximum planets/have the most colonies in alliances or to have a planet in the most sectors. If there is gaia planets goal you need fast navi and Gaiaformers, QICs. But I still think 20 games is not enough for throwing away yellow and blue techs.
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Colin Marsh
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kahy wrote:
DocCool wrote:
Interesting. Clearly you played way more test games than I did, but in my games playing the blue track (which gives income for knowledge/research) was quite a success strategy. It pays for itself after some steps, and then for advances in other sciences as well.


Yes. It pays off, but in our experience other tech trees pay off a bit more. Navigation and Gaiaforming or Terraforming are crucial for making positions on the map especially in early phase of the game. You can replace navi with QICs green tree. In my opinion the income techs pay off later, but it can be too late in 4p game. However everything depends on playstyle of other players - all in our group play pretty agressivelly. We have realized that if you are not spreading quickly you usually have a problem to find a planet to colonize. The fight for the map positions is tougher. Usually it didn't pay off is someone was waiting too long or was building to the height instead of spreading on the map. Main goals are to colonize maximum planets/have the most colonies in alliances or to have a planet in the most sectors. If there is gaia planets goal you need fast navi and Gaiaformers, QICs. But I still think 20 games is not enough for throwing away yellow and blue techs.


i haven't played enough to comment on particular tech tracks being weak but I do feel I played enough to back-up what you said about how aggressive the early phases of the game are. competition for planets seems much more brutal and intense than hex competition in TM. This is particularly true in 4 player. your game can be over by the end of the 2nd round if you have an aggressive neighbor or two who get their economy rolling faster than you do. there just aren't that many planets in the galaxy and you best get to them quickly.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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colinmarsh wrote:
your game can be over by the end of the 2nd round if you have an aggressive neighbor or two who get their economy rolling faster than you do. there just aren't that many planets in the galaxy and you best get to them quickly.


Or play Lantida. Then you can just build Colonies on their planets.

To the other playtesters, yes, I know what you are going to say.
 
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Colin Marsh
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
colinmarsh wrote:
your game can be over by the end of the 2nd round if you have an aggressive neighbor or two who get their economy rolling faster than you do. there just aren't that many planets in the galaxy and you best get to them quickly.


Or play Lantida. Then you can just build Colonies on their planets.

To the other playtesters, yes, I know what you are going to say.


i haven't yet tried them and i really really want to.
 
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Matteo Zini
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kahy wrote:
I have played plenty TM games(500+) and just about 20 GP games.

I love both.

TM is the best game ever for me... no doubt - no. 1 !

GP is great for me and I love it at the moment, however I need more matches to make an opinion. More and more I play GP, I feel that I can have a little problem with one aspect. We are less and less focusing on some of the technology tracks. Part of this game seems to be unplayable if you are more experienced. We now play only 4/6 technology tracks if we want to be succesfull. I hope we have just not revealed the true potencial of these 2 tracks. However, if I find this part of game little more balanced, it will be definitelly a "must buy" and maybe it will dethrone TM from the 1st position in my personal ladder.


Hi kahy,

Did you play with a final version of GP or you were playtesting it?
Did you play always with 4 persons?
How long does the game last?

Thanks
 
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Jan Kahánek
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Black_Meeple81 wrote:
kahy wrote:
I have played plenty TM games(500+) and just about 20 GP games.

I love both.

TM is the best game ever for me... no doubt - no. 1 !

GP is great for me and I love it at the moment, however I need more matches to make an opinion. More and more I play GP, I feel that I can have a little problem with one aspect. We are less and less focusing on some of the technology tracks. Part of this game seems to be unplayable if you are more experienced. We now play only 4/6 technology tracks if we want to be succesfull. I hope we have just not revealed the true potencial of these 2 tracks. However, if I find this part of game little more balanced, it will be definitelly a "must buy" and maybe it will dethrone TM from the 1st position in my personal ladder.


Hi kahy,

Did you play with a final version of GP or you were playtesting it?
Did you play always with 4 persons?
How long does the game last?

Thanks


Yes, playtesting. My friend has the copy for testing. We've tested almost final version of PG. The authors have made a slight changes and we've played only with 7 nations. But in the final version only very slight, hardly visible changes have been made.
I have played all 2, 3, 4 player matches.
Game lasts longer than TM. You have more matters to think about in GAIA. We play TM about 2 hours and PG about 2,5 - 3 hours (4 player game).
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