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Subject: Nesting: confusing text on the card rss

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Plamen Dimitrov
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My friends and I played our first game of Evolution: Flight the other day and while I enjoyed the game very much and look forward to playing it again, the text on a single card almost ruined the experience for us.

The text on the card Nesting is as follows:



"For each Population this species gains:
Land species: [...]
Avian species: Take 2 Meat food"

Now, currently I understand how the card works: when an avian species goes up in population, it gets 2 meat food from the bank right away and that's it.

However, when I first read the card, I thought it worked like this: "For each Population, this species gains: [...] 2 Meat food" (notice the comma I placed). In other words, my first understanding was that each turn, the avian species gains 2 food per population. As you can imagine, this made the trait ridiculously overpowered, as the birds would get instantly fed from the food bank before the turn even begins. The reference section in the rulebook wasn't too helpful, as it discussed other things. As I was the rules teacher, we played with this variant until we all agreed that something with this card was very wrong. After some discussion we finally realized we were playing wrong.

I realize that there's no comma on the actual card, but the wording is very confusing to me. English is not my first language, but I rarely have problems understanding any text on a board game. I think it would be much better if the card read instead: "Each time this species increases in Population: [...] Take 2 meat"

What do you guys think? Is it confusing or I was just exceptionally dim when reading it?
 
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Byron S
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Yes, it's easy to read incorrectly the way you did.
 
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Ariel
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The text on the card is ok, not "comma" needed, because it use the verb GAIN in the first part... and TAKE on the second. In other words, you could imagine the "comma" between those parts instead. (English is not my first language neither).

EDIT: I mean, if you put a comma in the first part, you will change the gramatic and the GAINS will be redundant next to the TAKE.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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It was worded this way because we were testing a card where you gain 2 Population when you discard a card instead of 1. And we were testing something similar for Brood Parasite where it gained 1 Population for each adjacent Avian Species. We left the wording because we wanted to be able to publish other cards with similar effects.

I'm sorry the wording caused you confusion.
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Andrew S
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When I take two meat per population gain and end up with more meat this animal can eat, can I give it to another animal? If not, what do I do with the excess meat? Put in my bag, a presume? That is the card says to take it, and nothing says to return it, then the only logical place for it to go is either other animals or the bag?

What are the actual rules here?
 
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Byron S
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zespri wrote:
When I take two meat per population gain and end up with more meat this animal can eat, can I give it to another animal? If not, what do I do with the excess meat? Put in my bag, a presume? That is the card says to take it, and nothing says to return it, then the only logical place for it to go is either other animals or the bag?

What are the actual rules here?

As with any time you gain multiple food at one time, you return any excess food you cannot eat back to the supply (watering hole, food bank, or cliff)
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Andrew S
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runtsta wrote:

As with any time you gain multiple food at one time, you return any excess food you cannot eat back to the supply (watering hole, food bank, or cliff)

Thank you. Can you help me find rule reference for this?
 
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Byron S
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zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

As with any time you gain multiple food at one time, you return any excess food you cannot eat back to the supply (watering hole, food bank, or cliff)

Thank you. Can you help me find rule reference for this?

Base game rulebook, p7-8

Some traits ... modify the amount of food that will be taken ... but in no case can food be taken from the Watering Hole if it would give a species more food than its population.

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population
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Bill Eldard
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runtsta wrote:
zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

As with any time you gain multiple food at one time, you return any excess food you cannot eat back to the supply (watering hole, food bank, or cliff)

Thank you. Can you help me find rule reference for this?

Base game rulebook, p7-8

Some traits ... modify the amount of food that will be taken ... but in no case can food be taken from the Watering Hole if it would give a species more food than its population.

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population

Exception: Fat Tissue.
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Andrew S
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runtsta wrote:

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population


But that clearly cannot apply to the Flight expansion, right? If it were true, you could never sate any avian species, right? Because they also take food for upkeep. So if an avian species has body size of 1 and population size of 1 it can take 2 food which is more that it's population, so that clause clearly does not work.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I going wrong somewhere?
 
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Byron S
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zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population

But that clearly cannot apply to the Flight expansion, right? If it were true, you could never sate any avian species, right? Because they also take food for upkeep. So if an avian species has body size of 1 and population size of 1 it can take 2 food which is more that it's population, so that clause clearly does not work.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I going wrong somewhere?

The Flight expansion adds some additional complexity, but the basic idea is still the same: a species cannot take more food than would fill up their population. In your example of an Avian species with body/pop 1/1, the upkeep is applied before consider whether you're taking more than your population.

If, for example, a 1/1 avian species had intelligence and foraging it could discard a card to potentially pick up 3 food from the food bank. The first would be applied to upkeep, and then only one more could be taken out of the possible two because there's only one population to feed.

Fat Tissue breaks this rule, but has its similar restrictions on its own gray area between "Not Hungry" and "Completely Fed".
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Thanks for the official response Byron!
 
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Bill Eldard
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runtsta wrote:
zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population

But that clearly cannot apply to the Flight expansion, right? If it were true, you could never sate any avian species, right? Because they also take food for upkeep. So if an avian species has body size of 1 and population size of 1 it can take 2 food which is more that it's population, so that clause clearly does not work.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I going wrong somewhere?

The Flight expansion adds some additional complexity, but the basic idea is still the same: a species cannot take more food than would fill up their population. In your example of an Avian species with body/pop 1/1, the upkeep is applied before consider whether you're taking more than your population.

If, for example, a 1/1 avian species had intelligence and foraging it could discard a card to potentially pick up 3 food from the food bank. The first would be applied to upkeep, and then only one more could be taken out of the possible two because there's only one population to feed.

Fat Tissue breaks this rule, but has its similar restrictions on its own gray area between "Not Hungry" and "Completely Fed".

So . . .

"Important Feeding Rules
-A species can almost never take more food than its Population"

 
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Byron S
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domcrap wrote:
Thanks for the official response Byron!

Ha! You're welcome. meeple
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Eldard wrote:
runtsta wrote:
zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population

But that clearly cannot apply to the Flight expansion, right? If it were true, you could never sate any avian species, right? Because they also take food for upkeep. So if an avian species has body size of 1 and population size of 1 it can take 2 food which is more that it's population, so that clause clearly does not work.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I going wrong somewhere?

The Flight expansion adds some additional complexity, but the basic idea is still the same: a species cannot take more food than would fill up their population. In your example of an Avian species with body/pop 1/1, the upkeep is applied before consider whether you're taking more than your population.

If, for example, a 1/1 avian species had intelligence and foraging it could discard a card to potentially pick up 3 food from the food bank. The first would be applied to upkeep, and then only one more could be taken out of the possible two because there's only one population to feed.

Fat Tissue breaks this rule, but has its similar restrictions on its own gray area between "Not Hungry" and "Completely Fed".

So . . .

"Important Feeding Rules
-A species can almost never take more food than its Population"



I guess so. You don’t ever put more Food into your bag than Population. The upkeep that Avian species need is to maintain the extra energy that it takes for avian species to use wings. In reality, avian species eat more food per body weight than any other species on the planet.
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Bill Eldard
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domcrap wrote:
Eldard wrote:
runtsta wrote:
zespri wrote:
runtsta wrote:

Important Feeding Rules
-A species can never take more food than its Population

But that clearly cannot apply to the Flight expansion, right? If it were true, you could never sate any avian species, right? Because they also take food for upkeep. So if an avian species has body size of 1 and population size of 1 it can take 2 food which is more that it's population, so that clause clearly does not work.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I going wrong somewhere?

The Flight expansion adds some additional complexity, but the basic idea is still the same: a species cannot take more food than would fill up their population. In your example of an Avian species with body/pop 1/1, the upkeep is applied before consider whether you're taking more than your population.

If, for example, a 1/1 avian species had intelligence and foraging it could discard a card to potentially pick up 3 food from the food bank. The first would be applied to upkeep, and then only one more could be taken out of the possible two because there's only one population to feed.

Fat Tissue breaks this rule, but has its similar restrictions on its own gray area between "Not Hungry" and "Completely Fed".

So . . .

"Important Feeding Rules
-A species can almost never take more food than its Population"



I guess so. You don’t ever put more Food into your bag than Population. The upkeep that Avian species need is to maintain the extra energy that it takes for avian species to use wings. In reality, avian species eat more food per body weight than any other species on the planet.

The operative word is take.

An Avian species takes one food for upkeep and one for food per Population; after taking food, one food goes into the bag, and the other is returned to the Supply.

For a species with the Fat Tissue trait, after taking one food for each Population and getting its fill, it can take an additional food for each Population; the stored fat does not go directly into the bag, but feeds the species on the next round before any more food is taken.
 
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Andrew S
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runtsta wrote:

The Flight expansion adds some additional complexity, but the basic idea is still the same: a species cannot take more food than would fill up their population. In your example of an Avian species with body/pop 1/1, the upkeep is applied before consider whether you're taking more than your population.

If, for example, a 1/1 avian species had intelligence and foraging it could discard a card to potentially pick up 3 food from the food bank. The first would be applied to upkeep, and then only one more could be taken out of the possible two because there's only one population to feed.

Fat Tissue breaks this rule, but has its similar restrictions on its own gray area between "Not Hungry" and "Completely Fed".


Thank you, yes, this all makes perfect sense, I only wish there were an official FAQ or errata to explain this (and some other unclarities in rules). Thank you, again.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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I’m the game designer and founder of the publishing company, so I’m as official as it gets.

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Andrew S
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domcrap wrote:
I’m the game designer and founder of the publishing company, so I’m as official as it gets.


Sorry, you misunderstood. I was not complaining about the lack of "officiality" but rather, that there is no single place to go for Errata or FAQ. I feel that this particular game can benefit from it greatly.

The official ruling was of course greatly appreciated, thank you again for giving it!
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