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Subject: Question about "Boss Fight" - SPOILERS! rss

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Gorka Morka
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So we managed to reach the master enemy of the ACT 1 campaign. It was the level with the Orc King. I am trying to wrap my head around the rules how to use the Orc King's {+} ability. It says:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
{+} Move up to two areas toward the closest hero. Attack the closest hero in L.O.S. within two areas with Winter's Bow.


The manual (section 16.1, page 54) says about master enemies

"In game terms, when the master enemy has the "Vengeful" power, its A.I. section only takes the distance between it and the menacing hero into account, ignoring any other possible victim"

and

"If the current master enemy card side has the "Vengeful" power, the master enemy will always target the menacing hero as the victim. Other heroes [...] will never be its primary target.".

The Orc King
Spoiler (click to reveal)
has the "Vengeful" power


Situation 1:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is 4 areas away from menacing hero (A) and 3 areas from another hero (B). He has L.O.S. to both heroes. {+} behaviour kicks in. Will the Orc King move one area towards hero B and attack him with Winter's Bow or move two areas towards A and attack him with WB?


Situation 2:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is 4 areas away from menacing hero (A) and 3 areas from another hero (B). He has L.O.S. to hero A but not to B. He could get into L.O.S. to hero B if he moved two areas. {+} behaviour kicks in. Will the Orc King move one area towards hero B and attack him with Winter's Bow or move two areas towards A and attack him with WB?


Situation 3:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is 4 areas away from menacing hero (A) and 3 areas from another hero (B). He has L.O.S. to hero B but not to A. He could get into L.O.S. to hero A if he moved two areas. {+} behaviour kicks in. Will the Orc King move one area towards hero B and attack him with Winter's Bow or move two areas towards A and attack him with WB?


Situation 4:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is 4 areas away from menacing hero (A) and 3 areas from another hero (B). He has L.O.S. to hero A but not to B. He could not get into L.O.S. to hero B, even if he moved two areas. {+} behaviour kicks in. Will the Orc King move one area towards hero A and attack him with Winter's Bow or move two areas towards B and do nothing?


Situation 5:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is 4 areas away from menacing hero (A) and 3 areas from another hero (B). He has L.O.S. to hero B but not to A. He could not get into L.O.S. to hero A, even if he moved two areas. {+} behaviour kicks in. Will the Orc King move one area towards hero B and attack him with Winter's Bow or move two areas towards A and do nothing?


Situation 6:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Orc King is equidistand from menacing hero (A) and another hero, both are 4 areas away. Can I choose whom he will attack? Or will he go for hero A? What about if A is out of L.O.S.? What if the Orc King couldn't get into L.O.S. to A, even if he moved two areas?


Thanks a lot,

Gorkar
 
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Vasilis
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I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
 
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Gorka Morka
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Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple


Hey Vasilis, thanks for the quick answer. Rule from rulebook counts for determining which A.I. line to use, thereafter it's just what the A.I. line says, pretty simple. Got it.

Thanks, Gorkar

P.S.: You stole your last line from Simone ;-)
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Rezard Vareth
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Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
This seems wrong. As I understand it, the orc king will attempt to attack the menacing hero (A) in every instance. No other hero can be the primary target of his attacks.

On movement, he moves he max distance toward them, not the minimum needed for LOS.
 
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Vasilis
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Gorkar wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple


Hey Vasilis, thanks for the quick answer. Rule from rulebook counts for determining which A.I. line to use, thereafter it's just what the A.I. line says, pretty simple. Got it.

Thanks, Gorkar


You are welcome.

Quote:
P.S.: You stole your last line from Simone ;-)


Maybe Simone stole the line from me... We'll never know.
 
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Vasilis
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RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
This seems wrong. As I understand it, the orc king will attempt to attack the menacing hero (A) in every instance. No other hero can be the primary target of his attacks.

On movement, he moves he max distance toward them, not the minimum needed for LOS.


Menacing hero is for checking which is the correct AI line to use. Then you resolve it as normal. Usually, the line will direct the enemy to do something to the menacing hero anyway so it makes no difference from your interpretation BUT in cases like the (+) AI line, it specifically mentions " moves 2 towards the closest hero and attacks the closest hero". Unless the menacing hero is the closest, he won't be attacked when resolving that line for example.

Just use the two-step guide I posted above and you are set. (unless ofcourse Simone appears and says otherwise)
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Rezard Vareth
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Bowmangr wrote:
RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
This seems wrong. As I understand it, the orc king will attempt to attack the menacing hero (A) in every instance. No other hero can be the primary target of his attacks.

On movement, he moves he max distance toward them, not the minimum needed for LOS.


Menacing hero is for checking which is the correct AI line to use. Then you resolve it as normal. Usually, the line will direct the enemy to do something to the menacing hero anyway so it makes no difference from your interpretation BUT in cases like the (+) AI line, it specifically mentions " moves 2 towards the closest hero and attacks the closest hero". Unless the menacing hero is the closest, he won't be attacked when resolving that line for example.

Just use the two-step guide I posted above and you are set. (unless ofcourse Simone appears and says otherwise)
I disagree with you. And I notice Simone hasn't stepped in to agree with you.

The top right bullet on page 54 says that "the Mastery Enemy will always target the Menacing Hero as the victim."
 
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Vasilis
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RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
This seems wrong. As I understand it, the orc king will attempt to attack the menacing hero (A) in every instance. No other hero can be the primary target of his attacks.

On movement, he moves he max distance toward them, not the minimum needed for LOS.


Menacing hero is for checking which is the correct AI line to use. Then you resolve it as normal. Usually, the line will direct the enemy to do something to the menacing hero anyway so it makes no difference from your interpretation BUT in cases like the (+) AI line, it specifically mentions " moves 2 towards the closest hero and attacks the closest hero". Unless the menacing hero is the closest, he won't be attacked when resolving that line for example.

Just use the two-step guide I posted above and you are set. (unless ofcourse Simone appears and says otherwise)
I disagree with you. And I notice Simone hasn't stepped in to agree with you.

The top right bullet on page 54 says that "the Mastery Enemy will always target the Menacing Hero as the victim."


Your interpretation essentially means that you can go to a boss fight, hide the menacing hero out of sight and/or out of range of the boss monster and have him do nothing each round because he can only attack the menacing hero and not the closest one while resolving his (+) AI line. Does this seem right to you?
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Rezard Vareth
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Bowmangr wrote:
RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
RezardVareth wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
I believe all your questions can be answered if you follow these steps when activating Vengeful enemies:

1} Determine the correct AI behavior, going from top to bottom as usual, based on the distance of the menacing hero and ignoring all other heroes. Treat them like they don't exist

2} Resolve the AI behavior normally as you would do with any other enemy. There is no special treatment regarding the menacing hero in this step. The only exception is as a tiebreak between equidistant heroes.

That is all. Hope that helps. meeple
This seems wrong. As I understand it, the orc king will attempt to attack the menacing hero (A) in every instance. No other hero can be the primary target of his attacks.

On movement, he moves he max distance toward them, not the minimum needed for LOS.


Menacing hero is for checking which is the correct AI line to use. Then you resolve it as normal. Usually, the line will direct the enemy to do something to the menacing hero anyway so it makes no difference from your interpretation BUT in cases like the (+) AI line, it specifically mentions " moves 2 towards the closest hero and attacks the closest hero". Unless the menacing hero is the closest, he won't be attacked when resolving that line for example.

Just use the two-step guide I posted above and you are set. (unless ofcourse Simone appears and says otherwise)
I disagree with you. And I notice Simone hasn't stepped in to agree with you.

The top right bullet on page 54 says that "the Mastery Enemy will always target the Menacing Hero as the victim."


Your interpretation essentially means that you can go to a boss fight, hide the menacing hero out of sight and/or out of range of the boss monster and have him do nothing each round because he can only attack the menacing hero and not the closest one while resolving his (+) AI line. Does this seem right to you?
Sorry, what? The "closest hero" for [+] AI is also the menacing hero. Once you understand that, there is no kiting:

First, there isn't generally that much space to hide relative to the number of activations the boss gets. Even if you try to kite, the boss will catch up relatively quickly.

Second, the [+] actions generally involve an attack of some kind (definitely true for the Orc King).

Third, how do you plan on killing the boss without drawing menace?
 
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Vasilis
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RezardVareth wrote:
Sorry, what? The "closest hero" for [+] AI is also the menacing hero.


If the closest hero is always the menacing hero, then there isn't any real reason to mention the word 'closest' in the text, is there? That's a hint right there if you ask me.

The only real reason the word 'closest' is used in that text is to allow the boss to attack someone else when he can't see the menacing hero. That's why it is used in its (+) AI line and not in the others. Because in all other situations the boss can see the menacing hero.

Quote:
Once you understand that, there is no kiting:


Wrong. You can do huge amount of kiting in that boss fight even when using my interpretation of the rules. If we use your interpretation of the rules then the boss fight becomes a walk in the park.

Quote:
First, there isn't generally that much space to hide relative to the number of activations the boss gets. Even if you try to kite, the boss will catch up relatively quickly.


The boss will generally activate after each hero. So each hero has a chance to attack and do something and then use his ACTIONs to manipulate the Menace token while ending his turn moving out of sight. Then, the boss will just move 2 areas and he can attack ONLY if he has LOS to the menacing hero, based on your interpretation. Based on my interpretation he will attack the closest hero, regardless if he is the menacing hero or not because that's what the AI directs it to do by mentioning the word 'closest'. In this case, you can still manipulate the boss but at least he can still attack someone else if he has LOS.

We actually had a hero stay inside the long corridor, the archer hide behind the left corner of the map and the melee hero stay around the center of the map in that boss fight. All we did was cycle the menace token around using our Provoke Master Enemy actions and try to hide in order to activate his (+) AI line and make him go north, then west, then south, then north again. Essentially, he was effectively staying at the same place all the time because he moved 2 areas inside the corridor, then he moved 2 areas south to enter the yard again and so on and so forth.
If we had used your rules interpretation, he wouldn't attack ANYONE because more than half the time he didn't have LOS to the menacing hero.
With my interpretation he attacked the closest hero who was the melee tank character, which was what we actually wanted in order to protect the other Heroes.


Quote:
Second, the [+] actions generally involve an attack of some kind (definitely true for the Orc King).


Yep. That's why even though the Boss may choose his (+) line because he can't see the menacing hero, the word attack 'closest' hero is used in the text in order for him to be able to do something instead of nothing.

Quote:
Third, how do you plan on killing the boss without drawing menace?


As I said, we had him going back and forth, 2 areas north and 2 areas south along the corridor, by manipulating the menace tokens, always keeping the menacing hero out of LOS so that the boss will activate his (+) line and attack the closest hero which we made sure was our tanking hero.
Note that if we had used your interpretation the boss would do absolutely nothing other than move 2 areas back and forth...
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Simone Romano
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Hi Adventurers,

The Master enemies always target the Menacing hero "as default", but cards can override the manuals, so in these cases the "closest hero" is simply the closest hero, that can be the menacing hero or another hero"
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