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Subject: In the land of the free rss

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G Rowls
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You WILL stand for the pledge of allegiance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/michigan-teacher-assault...
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Pontifex Maximus
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growlley wrote:
You WILL stand for the pledge of allegiance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/michigan-teacher-assault...


Somehow these teachers did not realize that it has been unconstitutional to force kids to recite the pledge since 1943. In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette it was noted that:

Quote:
Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions. These laws must, to be consistent with the First Amendment, permit the widest toleration of conflicting viewpoints consistent with a society of free men.

Neither our domestic tranquillity in peace nor our martial effort in war depend on compelling little children to participate in a ceremony which ends in nothing for them but a fear of spiritual condemnation. If, as we think, their fears are groundless, time and reason are the proper antidotes for their errors. The ceremonial, when enforced against conscientious objectors, more likely to defeat than to serve its high purpose, is a handy implement for disguised religious persecution. As such, it is inconsistent with our Constitution's plan and purpose.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/319/624

Demanding the mindless recitation of loyalty oaths is the hallmark of a dictatorship, not a free society

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"From now on I’m going to make every son of a bitch who comes to my intelligence tent sign a loyalty oath. And I’m not going to let that bastard Major Major sign one even if he wants to.”

"Almost overnight the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was in full flower, and Captain Black was enraptured to discover himself spearheading it. He had really hit on something. All the enlisted men and officers on combat duty had to sign a loyalty oath to get their map cases from the intelligence tent, a second loyalty oath to receive their flak suits and parachutes from the parachute tent, a third loyalty oath for Lieutenant Balkington, the motor vehicle officer, to be allowed to ride from the squadron to the airfield in one of the trucks. Every time they turned around there was another loyalty oath to be signed. They signed a loyalty oath to get their pay from the finance officer, to obtain their PX supplies, to have their hair cut by the Italian barbers. To Captain Black, every officer who supported his Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade was a competitor, and he planned and plotted twenty-four hours a day to keep one step ahead. He would stand second to none in his devotion to country. When other officers had followed his urging and introduced loyalty oaths of their own, he went them one better by making every son of a bitch who came to his intelligence tent sign two loyalty oaths, then three, then four; then he introduced the pledge of allegiance, and after that “The Star-Spangled Banner,” one chorus, two choruses, three choruses, four choruses. Each time Captain Black forged ahead of his competitors, he swung upon them scornfully for their failure to follow his example. Each time they followed his example, he retreated with concern and racked his brain for some new stratagem that would enable him to turn upon them scornfully again.

"Without realizing how it had come about, the combat men in the squadron discovered themselves dominated by the administrators appointed to serve them. They were bullied, insulted, harassed and shoved about all day long by one after the other. When they voiced objection, Captain Black replied that people who were loyal would not mind signing all the loyalty oaths they had to. To anyone who questioned the effectiveness of the loyalty oaths, he replied that people who really did owe allegiance to their country would be proud to pledge it as often as he forced them to. And to anyone who questioned the morality, he replied that “The Star-Spangled Banner” was the greatest piece of music ever composed. The more loyalty oaths a person signed, the more loyal he was; to Captain Black it was as simple as that, and he had Corporal Kolodny sign hundreds with his name each day so that he could always prove he was more loyal than anyone else.

"“The important thing is to keep them pledging,” he explained to his cohorts. “It doesn’t matter whether they mean it or not. That’s why they make little kids pledge allegiance even before they know what ‘pledge’ and ‘allegiance’ mean.”"

---

Heller, Joseph. Catch-22: 50th Anniversary Edition (pp. 130-132). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition.
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Derry Salewski
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I always sat during it as an adolescent due to hating authority (still do.) But I was probably six feet by twelve or so, so no one snatched me.

I would assume teachers are trained not to touch kids past a certain age, but decided not to be a teacher so don't actually know.

Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole more interested in some sweet cash from the school district than standing up for a kids right to get attention.

Sounds like a shitty teacher though, so feel free to let em go!
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Moshe Callen
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Once I got old enough to understand, I stopped saying the pledge as it seemed to me a loyalty oath. I still stood with everyone to not show disrespect. I don't agree with assaulting anyone but don't see what's wrong with asking people to stand respectfully while those who wish to recite the pledge do so.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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scifiantihero wrote:

I would assume teachers are trained not to touch kids past a certain age, but decided not to be a teacher so don't actually know.…

I taught high school and some middle school while getting classroom experience. Every single school I ever went to have a strict policy that a teacher is never allowed to touch a student.
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David Dearlove
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whac3 wrote:
Once I got old enough to understand, I stopped saying the pledge as it seemed to me a loyalty oath. I still stood with everyone to not show disrespect. I don't agree with assaulting anyone but don't see what's wrong with asking people to stand respectfully while those who wish to recite the pledge do so.

The whole pledging by children thing is pretty well straight out of a totalitatian regime playbook. It's absurd. Children cannot make informed choices and cannot therefore make pledges to anything let alone anything as abtract as the USA.
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DavidDearlove wrote:

The whole pledging by children thing is pretty well straight out of a totalitatian regime playbook.

That's exactly what my wife says and she's not wrong.
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It's absurd. Children cannot make informed choices and cannot therefore make pledges to anything let alone anything as abtract as the USA.

That's how I fee about the pledges I made at a younger age. When I understood what it meant, I stopped doing it.
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Andy Leighton
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scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?
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Derry Salewski
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andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


By a parent? Not.

By a football coach? Probably not.

By a teacher? I said technically assault, so the same as you? wtf do you want?

Someone is in charge of teaching kids how to behave.

I'm not saying they're correct in this case or that it's according to school policy or not shitty.

Just that sensationalising it is a little dumb when people actually get violently assaulted often and the kid isn't owed more than an apology in my opinion.

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Oh it can get stupid. Students knowing teachers are not allowed to touch students will get into teachers faces up close aggressively trying to provoke the teacher into touching them. I became adept at gracefully stepping out of the way of such students without touching them (even if I had to shove my hands in my pockets to do so) and promptly paging school administrators to remove any student who tried it.

My sister worked as a teacher at a private school where she got fired for pulling a kid out from in front of an oncoming bus. The kid apparently didn't realize the bus was coming or left that out when telling her parents who complained my sister bodily yanked a student off the road. Apparently of her last day she was made to meet with the parents and principal. She says the parents went away thanking her but that the principal (who had not bothered to ask her about details seemingly) was both too petty to back down and went so far as to privately tell her she should have let the bus hit the student rather than risk the school being sued over it. Since the incident happened on school grounds, I'm not sure how letting the bus hit a student would prevent a lawsuit myself but I agreed with my sister that it sounded like that principal was an idiot.

EDIT:
One other thing. My sister and I are very different. What I'd have done in such a situation is pulled the kid out from in front of the bus, point out to the kid-- loudly so that I was sure to be overheard-- that a bus had been coming, and then promptly go to the principal or my department head and describe the incident in detail including what happened and why. I'd have urged them to contact the parents with that info too preemptively.
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andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


I think people don't appreciate the very low level that assault represents (legally). Just putting a hand on someone non-violently but without permission can trigger it, let along dragging someone.

The common law offense people think of when they assume harm is battery. Round these parts we've mostly (entirely?) replaced it with more specific offenses generally abbreviated as ABH and GBH (the H is harm). I think assault is still there though.

Of course, as you will probably have already assumed, IANAL.
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G Rowls
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andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


The american way of bringing freedom and democracy to your school.
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scifiantihero wrote:
andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


By a parent? Not.

By a football coach? Probably not.

By a teacher? I said technically assault, so the same as you? wtf do you want?

Someone is in charge of teaching kids how to behave.

I'm not saying they're correct in this case or that it's according to school policy or not shitty.

Just that sensationalising it is a little dumb when people actually get violently assaulted often and the kid isn't owed more than an apology in my opinion.



How does it matter who does it??
 
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lfisher wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


By a parent? Not.

By a football coach? Probably not.

By a teacher? I said technically assault, so the same as you? wtf do you want?

Someone is in charge of teaching kids how to behave.

I'm not saying they're correct in this case or that it's according to school policy or not shitty.

Just that sensationalising it is a little dumb when people actually get violently assaulted often and the kid isn't owed more than an apology in my opinion.



How does it matter who does it??


I'm speculating that he is implying certain people already have explicit permission to touch the child. I'm not sure if a gym teacher would have permission if they were being a substitute but they might on the field or in the gym.

If not, then i dunno.
 
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Christopher Yaure
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I had a family member who declined to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance for reasons of conscience. He provided a written statement that he would not stand. The Assistant Principal explained to me that the family member should stand because otherwise he might be physically assaulted by other students.

I happily stand and recite the Pledge, but I exclude two words that I believe are inappropriate.
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actuaryesquire wrote:
I had a family member who declined to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance for reasons of conscience. He provided a written statement that he would not stand. The Assistant Principal explained to me that the family member should stand because otherwise he might be physically assaulted by other students.


Surely it is up to the school to provide a safe place of study. If the Assistant Principal or Principal admits that a student is likely to be physically assaulted in a classroom with a teacher then they are admitting failure.
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scifiantihero wrote:
andyl wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Clearly a line was crossed but calling it assault sounds like technicality based hyperbole


Of course it was assault? What other word would you use for someone being yanked out of their chair against their will?


By a parent? Not.

By a football coach? Probably not.

By a teacher? I said technically assault, so the same as you? wtf do you want?

Someone is in charge of teaching kids how to behave.

I'm not saying they're correct in this case or that it's according to school policy or not shitty.

Just that sensationalising it is a little dumb when people actually get violently assaulted often and the kid isn't owed more than an apology in my opinion.


Seriously? Maybe for the parent, maybe. Definitely for the coach and the teacher. Children may have a limited set of rights but they certainly do not cede their bodily autonomy. You don't get to handle school age kids any more than you do adults.
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RE: Standing for the pledge

I stand for the pledge and the playing of the national anthem. I never expect anyone else to do so and if they do, great and if they don't okay, I hold no grudge, that's their right.

What I don't like are people who cajole, coerce or otherwise shame others into standing for the pledge or SSB, THAT I cannot condone.

RE: Teacher actions. No, you cannot force your beliefs on students and certainly not by physical force. Take her pension away.
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Incidentally does anyone these days use The Land of the Free (or The Home of the Brave) except ironically?
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actuaryesquire wrote:
I happily stand and recite the Pledge, but I exclude two words that I believe are inappropriate.

And, it should be noted, although the resolution by Congress recognizing the Pledge of Allegiance was passed in 1942, the two words "under God" weren't added until 1954.
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Eric Brosius wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
I happily stand and recite the Pledge, but I exclude two words that I believe are inappropriate.

And, it should be noted, although the resolution by Congress recognizing the Pledge of Allegiance was passed in 1942, the two words "under God" weren't added until 1954.


I thought the two words, "...under God," were put in the pledge to sift out Commie-Pinkos.

:rolleyes:
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I hope the teacher faces a disciplinary hearing and then is dismissed. That is an action that is egregious and beyond inappropriate. I was in grade school in the 1960s in OKLAHOMA and there were kids who didn't recite the pledge and/or stand, mainly due to religious reasons. Nobody beat them up, including teachers, and no one said much about it. My kids have reported the same thing, and they went to school in much smaller Oklahoma towns than I lived in. To take a single instance and trying to make it representative of a national education system is ludicrous at best, insulting at worst.

And I never had a problem with saying the pledge or standing during the national anthem. I thought the pledge was silly, like almost all the prayers I had to stand for in church. The anthem, though, was different. Proud to do it, though I respect those who disagree (Kolin Kapernick) and support their right to not stand.
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J.D. Hall
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Dearlove wrote:
Incidentally does anyone these days use The Land of the Free (or The Home of the Brave) except ironically?

Piss off. Tell those 19 to 21 year old kids humping their way around the Afghan mountains they're a bunch of chickenshits.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
Incidentally does anyone these days use The Land of the Free (or The Home of the Brave) except ironically?

Piss off. Tell those 19 to 21 year old kids humping their way around the Afghan mountains they're a bunch of chickenshits.


??? Pretty sure that was neither stated nor implied.
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