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Subject: timing out math / Lot nexus rss

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Byron Campbell
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I just completed my first failed scenario (No Way Out). After the game, thinking about what I could have done differently to succeed, I realized I had no chance of winning this game.

With 3 saints, there are 4 nexuses in this scenario. Each one has 8 cards plus 2 archetypes. So, worst case scenario, you need to go through 40 cards to win the scenario. That is if the minion A's are shuffled to the bottom of every deck (which they were in my case in 3 out of 4 decks).

But with 24 Omens in the doomsday clock, none in the nexuses, and only 12 additional omens in the saint decks (4 per saint), you only have 36 investigations in the game! And that is assuming you are able to do things in the proper order, since this scenario requires you to first find the Minion C's and then seal the nexuses in the right order, which should slow things down.

I think what makes this one particularly tricky is that if you confront a Minion A when there is no Minion C revealed, you Lose even if you win, which means doing things like sacrificing Fragments if you are fighting the Hay Man.

This came right on the heels of In Cold Blood, which was ludicrously easy (won within 15 minutes). Is there any sort of difficulty rating for the scenarios?

Side question on the Lot nexus: Am I interpreting the Doom side correctly? It says to add 1 mutation die per other saint at the nexus. Does that mean, even if I am not being assisted, I mutate anyway? On every single check, including those Initiate checks on the Dreamers? Seems really harsh.
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malcolm reynolds
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The rules say you Mutate if any Saints Assist. We've been playing that Mutate powers only apply if you create a Mutate step by Assisting. If you were being forced to Mutate I would expect the power to tell you so, especially since there would be no reroll bonus to go along with the Mutation.

However, since forcing a Mutation is how Mike and Liz played the Cryptid in one of the playthrough videos I saw, I would also like a confirmation. It may have been a mistake, as I did catch Liz making a mistake twice.
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C Sandifer
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Khaaaaan wrote:
The rules say you Mutate if any Saints Assist. We've been playing that Mutate powers only apply if you create a Mutate step by Assisting.


That's the way we played it. We'll see if that was the correct interpretation...

Coincidentally, we got lucky and beat No Way Out just a few hours ago. It helped that today's "rule of the day" (Temporal Mutation) was that you get a free Body die against any non-true threat.

*** scenario spoilers ***

We cut it close and won with 6 omens left in the clock. We almost always encountered the C Minions before the Hay Man/Bunnies, so we were able to close the Nexuses in the right order after a few unlucky draws.

Anyway, Pathfinder can be the same way. Sometimes you just lose because of how the decks are stacked. The difference, though, is that there's generally no penalty for losing in Pathfinder. In Apocrypha, someone slots a death.

But yeah, No Way Out isn't easy. Seems to be on the high end of difficulty, mostly due to sheer randomness.

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Justin Boehm
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You can't add dice to a step that doesn't exist, so I'd say if you don't get an assist, you don't add 3 mutation dice.

Also it's called "No Way Out", seems it should be very hard thematically.
 
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David Arlington
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Was there ever an official answer to the question about the Lot's Doom side? Like in the FAQ maybe? I'm playing this Mission next and had the same question.

Dave
 
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Mike Selinker
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DocSavage2001 wrote:
Was there ever an official answer to the question about the Lot's Doom side? Like in the FAQ maybe? I'm playing this Mission next and had the same question.

Sorry, must have missed this one. What's the question about Lot?
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C Sandifer
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I think this was the question:

kittenhoarder wrote:
Am I interpreting the Doom side correctly? It says to add 1 mutation die per other saint at the nexus. Does that mean, even if I am not being assisted, I mutate anyway? On every single check, including those Initiate checks on the Dreamers? Seems really harsh.
 
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David Arlington
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mike selinker wrote:
DocSavage2001 wrote:
Was there ever an official answer to the question about the Lot's Doom side? Like in the FAQ maybe? I'm playing this Mission next and had the same question.

Sorry, must have missed this one. What's the question about Lot?


The Lot on the Doom side says:

{Symbol for you} Mutate: Add 1 Mutation die for each other Saint at this Nexus (or close to that, paraphrasing from memory)

The question is: If no other Saint is actually assisting on this check, does the Mutate step still take place or is there only a Mutate step in a check when someone actually assists?

The rulebook says about Attempting a Check: "There are several steps to attempt the check; these steps happen in order..."

The Mutate step says if a Saint assists, the check get mutated during this step.

But what it doesn't say is if the step even happens at all when no one is assisting. The main text on attempting checks seems to imply ALL the steps take place in a check, even if nothing happens on one of them.

Thanks!
Dave
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Michael Corneau
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Personally, I rule this the same as adding skill dice from a gift. You can only add skill dice from the gift if the gift is already adding dice to the check. So in terms of adding Mutate dice, I think that would only happen if there were already Mutate dice being used. It essentially deters assisting at that location.

I can see either side though.
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Nicole Ryn
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kittenhoarder wrote:

With 3 saints, there are 4 nexuses in this scenario. Each one has 8 cards plus 2 archetypes. So, worst case scenario, you need to go through 40 cards to win the scenario.

But with 24 Omens in the doomsday clock, none in the nexuses, and only 12 additional omens in the saint decks (4 per saint), you only have 36 investigations in the game!


I might look into a balance house rule. Something like scale the clock to both difficulty and player count. So in your example, looking at 40 as the bare minimum for a 'guaranteed' success, you might use it as a baseline hard. 43 for medium, and maybe 46 for easy?

So do (difficulty) - 4x(saints) = Clock. Medium, 3 saints = 31 on the clock. Easy with 2 saints is 32 on the clock.
 
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Tom Chick
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DocSavage2001 wrote:
The main text on attempting checks seems to imply ALL the steps take place in a check, even if nothing happens on one of them.


So this never got answered? Mike showed up, asked to be reminded what the question was, and then never responded when the question was posted again for him? :)

-Tom
 
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