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Subject: just too basic and random...shame rss

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gary gee
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Hi,
all,having had this game quite a while now heres my very brief pluses and minuses

pluses...looks great..fantastic miniatures [especially with the KS stuff]
looks real Dungeon crawler material...

Minuses... very bland gameplay.and very limited tactics.
rules are very wishy-washy.and everything especially treasure and loot is so random.which really breaks this game.
whats happened in my opinion.is they have used the same mechanics as Zombicide.which works brilliantly with that game.but, is very weak and very random when it comes to a dungeon crawler type game.

summing up...great minis..poor game mechanic


ahhhh well,[goes back to D2E and Dungeon Saga]
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Daniel Halasz
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Hmm... I don't really understand the complaints.
This game is a simple dungeon crawler. Much simpler rules than Descent's, but offers nearly similar depth, excpet the storybook.

Compared to zombicide it needs much more decisions and tactics with varied monsters and quests.

I don't think it would be too easy either. In single quest mode, it can be really hard with 3-4 charcters, especially the quest with some kind of timer.

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gary gee
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Hi,Daniel.

its just my opinion.its just that I was expecting quite a bit more depth to the game.especially with the miniatures you get with the game.and like a lot of KS now you get lots more minis with no rules or adventures for them.
but I know a lot like the game.
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Son Do
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tootz wrote:
Hi,
all,having had this game quite a while now heres my very brief pluses and minuses

pluses...looks great..fantastic miniatures [especially with the KS stuff]
looks real Dungeon crawler material...

Minuses... very bland gameplay.and very limited tactics.
rules are very wishy-washy.and everything especially treasure and loot is so random.which really breaks this game.
whats happened in my opinion.is they have used the same mechanics as Zombicide.which works brilliantly with that game.but, is very weak and very random when it comes to a dungeon crawler type game.

summing up...great minis..poor game mechanic


ahhhh well,[goes back to D2E and DS


Couldn't agree more
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Martin
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Before I start, my comments are purely about playing quests individually, and I haven't tried the story mode at all yet.

I was a bit anxious that this might be my first big Kickstarter regret... but... I gotta say I'm having a blast playing this game at the moment - solo - controlling 6 heroes.

I love the total randomness of it at the beginning. You're just never sure what you're going to get. Can even be totally unfair. Like the most recent game where I drew a werewolf with an extra armour card and a cyclops within the first round, and got totally wiped. Reminds me a bit of Dungeonquest in that respect. Gives a lot of variability to each play.

I'm also finding that there is lots of room for strategy, with swapping of loot between the heroes, and ducking in and out of the shadows and LOS to avoid more powerful enemies.

I'll admit that calculating the combat bonuses and skill effects can get a little taxing when you're controlling 6 heroes by yourself. I'm thinking a good solution might be an additional card for each hero, which you update whenever you change weapons, armour, items or gain new skills. Maybe a card where you place cubes so that it keeps track of how many +/- and BAM options you have.

Tonnes of opportunities to house rule as well.

I agree, it's no Mage Knight. I have Perdition's Mouth and a whole lot of other more intricate crawlers. Excellent games in their own right. But after working all day and looking after the kids, sometimes simpler is better, and for what it is, I think this game is great.
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Chuck Hurd
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^^ Evertything Martin said...except I don't own Perdition's Mouth. The game is what I expected so no disappointment issue there. But I agree, as with any game, it's a matter of taste.
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Daniel Halasz
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However it is interesting that I backed this game hoping it will be "smarter" than zombicide (I don't like zombicide), and I like it. Others backed it hoping it will be like zombicide, but they find it too simple.
 
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Dan Rosewater
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Ok, here is what I think about the game (having played lots of Zomibicide, so comparisions are made).

The rules could have been written more clearly. Much text, where a simple table or graphic was better. And I think the rules need some tweaking so this game can really shine.
Some problems: the amount of treasures (Door cards) does not scale with amount of players (monsters do).
The AI of monsters; you easily can avoid dealing with them by standing with your heroes out of line of sight in the shadow. Monsters will head down to the starting zone which is surely empty after two rounds. Until it comes back (exit zone) you're gone. AI should be a bit smarter (predecessor Zombicide has better AI). On the other hand, you want to avoid greater Roaming monsters...
Story mode is questionable: your progress will be slower, saying that, the first quest will be really difficult, the second maybe mediocre, but surely starting the third or fourth, it means that you will have already the best gear available so it starts being a cakewalk. And what are your goals during the next quests? Surely not as much play tested at it should have been.
What bothers me in terms of gameplay is that you as a hero deal only with two entities: either monsters or treasure. This can get stale soon. I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.
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Chuck Hurd
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Goodsound wrote:
...This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.

I'm definitely in agreement with this. It could have been richer and a little more thematic as a dungeon experience. The kind of stuff you mention would be fun to house rule...but it could have been included with a little bit of thought.
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Brant Benoit
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Goodsound wrote:
I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.


I take it you haven't played many of the quests or with the crystal and lava quests. All of what you mention is used and found in the later quests and with the extra tiles.

It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.
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Chuck Hurd
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Ghool wrote:
...It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.

Right, well some of don't even have all their KS content yet. Still waiting...whistle
 
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Brant Benoit
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Carcking wrote:
Ghool wrote:
...It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.

Right, well some of don't even have all their KS content yet. Still waiting...whistle


Then how can you complain about the game and be in agreement with certain omplaints without even having it in hand or having played it?
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Chuck Hurd
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Ghool wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Ghool wrote:
...It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.

Right, well some of don't even have all their KS content yet. Still waiting...whistle


Then how can you complain about the game and be in agreement with certain omplaints without even having it in hand or having played it?

We have the base game so far. Received a first shipment on Saturday and got through a few of the quests. Waiting on the balance to arrive this week. The changes you suggest the bonus content will bring sounds awesome! Can't wait now.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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slim17 wrote:
Before I start, my comments are purely about playing quests individually, and I haven't tried the story mode at all yet.

I was a bit anxious that this might be my first big Kickstarter regret... but... I gotta say I'm having a blast playing this game at the moment - solo - controlling 6 heroes.

I love the total randomness of it at the beginning. You're just never sure what you're going to get. Can even be totally unfair. Like the most recent game where I drew a werewolf with an extra armour card and a cyclops within the first round, and got totally wiped. Reminds me a bit of Dungeonquest in that respect. Gives a lot of variability to each play.

I'm also finding that there is lots of room for strategy, with swapping of loot between the heroes, and ducking in and out of the shadows and LOS to avoid more powerful enemies.

I'll admit that calculating the combat bonuses and skill effects can get a little taxing when you're controlling 6 heroes by yourself. I'm thinking a good solution might be an additional card for each hero, which you update whenever you change weapons, armour, items or gain new skills. Maybe a card where you place cubes so that it keeps track of how many +/- and BAM options you have.

Tonnes of opportunities to house rule as well.

I agree, it's no Mage Knight. I have Perdition's Mouth and a whole lot of other more intricate crawlers. Excellent games in their own right. But after working all day and looking after the kids, sometimes simpler is better, and for what it is, I think this game is great.


Playing solo you avoid some issues, I think. Downtime, the frustration of other players and you really have more to think about. With six players you also have less treasure and the challenge is a bit extended that way.
 
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Freelance Police
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tootz wrote:
its just that I was expecting quite a bit more depth to the game.


Yeah, I like the miniatures, too. laugh
 
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Chuck Hurd
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zinho73 wrote:
Playing solo you avoid some issues, I think. Downtime, the frustration of other players and you really have more to think about.

I played solo with four heroes over the weekend. I really enjoyed the brain test and working through the puzzle.
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Brant Benoit
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Carcking wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Playing solo you avoid some issues, I think. Downtime, the frustration of other players and you really have more to think about.

I played solo with four heroes over the weekend. I really enjoyed the brain test and working through the puzzle.


I've found that 4 heroes seems to be the number at which the game was balanced. It seems to play best with 4, where the balance is somewhat difficult, and the treasure distribution allows for more progressive growth.

With less or more it becomes much more swingy.
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Brant Benoit
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Carcking wrote:
Ghool wrote:
Carcking wrote:
Ghool wrote:
...It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.

Right, well some of don't even have all their KS content yet. Still waiting...whistle


Then how can you complain about the game and be in agreement with certain omplaints without even having it in hand or having played it?

We have the base game so far. Received a first shipment on Saturday and got through a few of the quests. Waiting on the balance to arrive this week. The changes you suggest the bonus content will bring sounds awesome! Can't wait now.


Ah that makes sense then. Some of the later quests have you destroying pillars and such to activate certain things/situations, and the crystal and lava tiles both have different effects on players depending if they are in certain light/dark zones, and corridors/rooms.
 
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Dan Rosewater
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Ghool wrote:
Goodsound wrote:
I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.


I take it you haven't played many of the quests or with the crystal and lava quests. All of what you mention is used and found in the later quests and with the extra tiles.

It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.


Dear Brant, this "complaint" is about the base game.
It does add nothing to this conversation that some issues are possibly fixed with an expanison. I wrote my comment despite the fact knowing that crystal and lava zones have special effects. So concluding people writing here have little to none experience with the actual game is presumptuous.
 
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Brant Benoit
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Goodsound wrote:
Ghool wrote:
Goodsound wrote:
I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.


I take it you haven't played many of the quests or with the crystal and lava quests. All of what you mention is used and found in the later quests and with the extra tiles.

It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.


Dear Brant, this "complaint" is about the base game.
It does add nothing to this conversation that some issues are possibly fixed with an expanison. I wrote my comment despite the fact knowing that crystal and lava zones have special effects. So concluding people writing here have little to none experience with the actual game is presumptuous.


I wasn't being presumptuous. I was merely going on what you stated because at this point only those that backed the KS have the game. I assumed that the feedback was based on the KS pledge and not just the base game. But base games are also bare bones, especially when including the amount of minis MD has.
Even so, the later quests have you doing a little more than just open door, kill guys and take loot. All of those are in the base game.

But had you stated it was only the base game, I still would have told you to take a look at the later quests and perhaps play a few of them before passing judgement.

I've been enjoying the game a ton and there is a lot that can be added and tweaked with this system. I suspect we'll see some cool things in the future.

I also think it's presumptuous to.pass judgement and complain about things that indeed are included with the base game when you haven't played all of the quests in the base set.
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Steven R
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slim17 wrote:


I agree, it's no Mage Knight. I have Perdition's Mouth and a whole lot of other more intricate crawlers. Excellent games in their own right. But after working all day and looking after the kids, sometimes simpler is better, and for what it is, I think this game is great.


Yep! That's exactly what it was supposed to be. Families or light evening gaming. They did a fairly good job of pulling it off. My group plays Imperial Assault also, it's fun but not overwhelmingly awesome...I just think many are very bias when rating this genre. They have a favorite and just want to put all the others down.

There were a lot of 'Haters' of this game even before the KS launched...I think many of them ended up backing the game and just hoping that it was going to be something else than what it was advertised as...
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Mr Suitcase
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Goodsound wrote:
Ghool wrote:
Goodsound wrote:
I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.


I take it you haven't played many of the quests or with the crystal and lava quests. All of what you mention is used and found in the later quests and with the extra tiles.

It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.


Dear Brant, this "complaint" is about the base game.
It does add nothing to this conversation that some issues are possibly fixed with an expanison. I wrote my comment despite the fact knowing that crystal and lava zones have special effects. So concluding people writing here have little to none experience with the actual game is presumptuous.


I think it DID add something to the conversation. It encouraged you to clarify that you were talking strictly about the base game in your analysis!

I think calling people presumptuous is what is not productive and adds nothing to the conversation. Instead, you and Ghool should just focus your discussion on your opinions of the game and what you observed and experienced so far to back up those opinions.
 
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Brant Benoit
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mrsuitcase wrote:
Goodsound wrote:
Ghool wrote:
Goodsound wrote:
I wished there was more to interact with (Items that change a room from light to dark and vice versa (a torch)) or just using some kinda tools or furniture for barricades or similar. Or that rooms can have special traits (you heal there or lose something when staying there).
This is where I agree that the experience could be richer and rules deserve a bit tweaking.


I take it you haven't played many of the quests or with the crystal and lava quests. All of what you mention is used and found in the later quests and with the extra tiles.

It's comments like this that really point out how little people have actually played much but the first two or three quests.


Dear Brant, this "complaint" is about the base game.
It does add nothing to this conversation that some issues are possibly fixed with an expanison. I wrote my comment despite the fact knowing that crystal and lava zones have special effects. So concluding people writing here have little to none experience with the actual game is presumptuous.


I think it DID add something to the conversation. It encouraged you to clarify that you were talking strictly about the base game in your analysis!

I think calling people presumptuous is what is not productive and adds nothing to the conversation. Instead, you and Ghool should just focus your discussion on your opinions of the game and what you observed and experienced so far to back up those opinions.


That's all I was trying to do. To provide another bias from the other end of the spectrum. My family is having a blast with MD. Is it perfectly balanced, and have a solid campaign system? No.
But expecting that experience from what it clearly was not meant to provide is giving a skewed viewpoint for new players.

It's simply, rules-light, one-off dungeon crawler. Expecting something like Descent or Gloomhaven here is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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I was expecting a bare-bones dice chuckler and was still impressed on how bare-bones and unimaginative the game ended up being.

It seems like a game that stopped development when it was good enough. At a certain point it looks like they ran out of interest, time or competence to move it a little bit forward: monster AI, door deck, monster balance, dice balance, XP costs, number of players, story mode, minions, endgame, transmutation. Every aspect of the game seems that needs a little bit more of work to really shine. They were even a bit careless when printing the cards.

It works, it can be fun on the right circumstances, but it appears that they just gave up at the game after a certain point. A point very, very close to the finish product.

I understand why people like the game and I kind of like it too, but the design does feel lazy.

I love that other people have a completely different opinion, but I am saying that to stress that a lot of the criticism the game is getting is not because of high expectations.

I am not disappointed because the game didn't met my expectations. I am disappointed because the game didn't make any effort to surpass it.
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Steven R
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zinho73 wrote:


I am not disappointed because the game didn't met my expectations. I am disappointed because the game didn't make any effort to surpass it.


That's a fair and honest assessment...from a rules & balancing perspective I won't disagree that it could have been better...component wise they did an outstanding job. I would suggest that version 2.0 should work on the story mode and RPG part (only because it was labeled as such)...I don't really care that much because I prefer it as a short 1.5 to 3 hour hack and slash...I already have enough games with depth and complexity. I want a little 'tighter' gameplay / monster-mob progression.
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