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Subject: Which one of WW2 tactical combat... rss

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Electro Rush
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Ok Guys,
so my descent into wargaming madness continues.
Now I want to add to my collection some game in tactical scale about WW2.
I did a little bit of research and this are the games that picked my interest:
1) Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear
2) Combat Commander: Europe
3) Combat Infantry

Now question to experienced gamers who played those titles, which one of those games would be the best for me, asuming I expect following things:
1) replayability
2) soloable
3) providing a lot of options as core set, without need of buying constant expansions (hello FFG)
4) reasonable player base - tournament scene, potential for finding gaming partners
5) clear, well written rules and smooth gameplay

Thanks in advance for all the answers.


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Joe Kundlak
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Out of these three there will be at least two different answers for you whistle

(Never played any, but the first two get pertracted often.)
 
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Mike Hoyt

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Not going to ignore the three you listed, but can't comment since I've never played them. And never played them because Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer and the other titles are just excellent IMHO.

Perhaps you've already considered and dismissed BOB, in which case I'll leave you to your misguided ways (grin) but just in case you have not considered BOB, I would be remiss to not mention it

Good luck with whichever system(s) you choose, and welcome to wargaming!
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Russ Williams
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Embir wrote:
1) Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear
2) Combat Commander: Europe

FWIW I've played and enjoyed CoH and CCE. My thoughts on your criteria:

1) replayability CCE
CCE has an excellent random scenario generator. It has lots of random events and chaos which happen every game. It has lots of expansions if you prefer published scenarios.

2) soloable CoH
CoH (unlike most tactical games) has an excellent solitaire expansion if you want to compete to win against an AI, while CCE has no solitaire-vs-AI system.
If you want to solo both sides of the 2-player game to watch the story unfold, CoH also seems better since CCE has hands of secret cards and interrupt reactions as a core mechanism.

3) providing a lot of options as core set, without need of buying constant expansions (hello FFG) CCE
CCE (did I mention its excellent random scenario generator?)

4) reasonable player base - tournament scene, potential for finding gaming partners CCE?
both are popular; I have the impression CCE has a larger tournament and Vassal and club scene, plus more magazine articles & bonus scenarios published e.g. in C3i.

5) clear, well written rules and smooth gameplay CCE
CCE has among the best written clearest rules for a game of this complexity. CoH's are OK but not as clear.
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Gordon Watson
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Embir wrote:
Ok Guys,

1) Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear
2) Combat Commander: Europe
3) Combat Infantry
4) ASL/ASLSK


It will be difficult to gauge opinion on #3 as it isn't out yet. I have naughtily added ASL/SK to you list - it's the 800LB gorilla in the living room (just behind the elephant).


Now question to experienced gamers who played those titles, which one of those games would be the best for me, asuming I expect following things:
1) replayability
- ASL/SK probably wins here due to the sheer number of scenarios out there. Having said that CC somes with lots of scenarios in each box and they can certainly be played a fair few times. CoH came with less scenarios but those there can be replayed although I typically found they were less engaging than CC and ASL

2) soloable
- CoH is very soloable if you buy the expansion that adds that in. ASL/SK is pretty soloable playing from each side. CC is less so due to the card based nature of the gameplay although I believe there is a variant on thegeek somewhere to allow it.

3) providing a lot of options as core set, without need of buying constant expansions (hello FFG)
- Full ASL would win here, especially if bought with Beyond Valor, or Yanks. The SK's less so. I would again put CC ahead of CoH although the latter has tanks which may or may not be important to you.

4) reasonable player base - tournament scene, potential for finding gaming partners
- ASL/SK & CC probably tied here. Not sure about the player base for CoH. All are available for online play and CoH has a full AI.

5) clear, well written rules and smooth gameplay
- ASLSK#1 is pretty good, so is CC and I had no problems with CoH either. Full ASL..errrr....yeah well if you get that far you are pretty committed by then, but best to get someone to show you how it goes.

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Jason Cawley
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Conflict of Heroes. Not close. At most you might want one additional game - the Kursk one. Combat Commander you will want a library shelf... (Good system, but more learning curve and a lot more items to collect, focused on designed scenarios and less "full kit" in 1-2 boxes for the "roll your own" replayability you are after, etc).
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Jason Cawley
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BoB is hyped a lot but my experience of it is quite disappointing. It isn't in the same league as CC or COH - or ASL for that matter - in my opinion. The game play is too mechanical / formulaic in practice.

The game designers have a particular thesis about the era's tactics and they enforce it upon you - you don't get to invent or try or discover in the BoB system. You do it the designer's way, or you lose. I'd personally rather watch a wall of paint slowly dry, but some people seem to like it (for its simplicity I suspect, for its realism they will claim, since they agree with its designers I guess).

Entirely one man's opinion...
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JasonC wrote:
BoB is hyped a lot but my experience of it is quite disappointing. It isn't in the same league as CC or COH - or ASL for that matter - in my opinion. The game play is too mechanical / formulaic in practice.

The game designers have a particular thesis about the era's tactics and they enforce it upon you - you don't get to invent or try or discover in the BoB system. You do it the designer's way, or you lose. I'd personally rather watch a wall of paint slowly dry, but some people seem to like it (for its simplicity I suspect, for its realism they will claim, since they agree with its designers I guess).

Entirely one man's opinion...


I feel the opposite. I think CC is hyped and BoB is a very good system that will give you a good understanding on WW2 tactics.

Don't get me wrong... CC is a good game as well but for me it fails as a WW2 tactical simulation. I don't buy the argument that the cards represent battlefield chaos. My feelings mirror those of Judd Vance and for the guys who want to check them out... just take a look at the HAMTAG video of the top 5 overrated wargames. I'll even provide the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTmR-IoKgAA

Also something to consider is that CC doesn't have tanks in them. Ok, the little French expansion has a tank in it but don't think there are any ohters that have them. From your 3 options you give... I would pick CoH. Superb components, easy to learn and the best option if you want to play solo. If you haven't taken a look at BoB... I would check that one out as well.

Just my opinion ofcourse

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You will love Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! (second edition). And for a specific solo system you will pick up Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion. After you finally pick up Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear – Firefight Generator you will have enough material to play it indefinitely. Enjoy!
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Ahmed Hadzi
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Combat Commander, hands down.

If you buy Europe and Med (base 2 core sets), you will have all you need and then some.

Random Scenario Generator in this game is awesome. Rules are THE BEST RULES ever written by a human.

And we have a huge Vassal Community (https://www.boardgamegeek.com/guild/1742), so you can always find a game.

You can then buy battle packs as you see fit (YOU DON'T need any of the c3i stuff that people mentioned here).
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domus_ludorum wrote:

3) providing a lot of options as core set, without need of buying constant expansions (hello FFG)
- Full ASL would win here, especially if bought with Beyond Valor, or Yanks. The SK's less so. I would again put CC ahead of CoH although the latter has tanks which may or may not be important to you.


Maybe I am missing something..... How does ASL "win" here when you cannot even play it without buying an expansion? whistle

Side note- I just looked at ASL and it has 41 pages of expansions.
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Greg Gresik
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Joeyeti wrote:
Out of these three there will be at least two different answers for you whistle

(Never played any, but the first two get pertracted often.)


Also fighting the urge to recommend Valor & Victory, I would guess?
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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Combat Commander: Europe is the best overall.
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Stephen Harper
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Typically a question such as yours stirs up a hornet's nest with us grognards!

It would be hard to judge Combat Infantry, as it has not yet been published. That said, I did sign up on Kick Starter for it.

I do own all games that so far have been published for both Combat Commander and Conflict of Heroes, and have played both systems fairly extensively, but not exhaustively.

Here is my 2 cents on your questions:

1) Replayability - If you buy one Conflict of Heroes game (make sure it is the latest edition if you choose Awakening the Bear or Storms of Steel)and the Firefight Generator, you will have much more replayability than with Combat Commander. I picked up my copy of the Firefight Generator for only $20, so cost to add it to your collection is not prohibitive.

2) Soloable - Combat Commander is hard to play solo, as its play is card driven. The system used in Conflict of Heroes makes it much easier to play solo, and if you purchase Awakening the Bear and its Solo add on, you will have an excellent solo playing experience.

3) Lots of options with core set - A toss up here, although Awakening the Bear has an edge if coupled with the Firefight Generator and Solo add ons.

4) Reasonable player base - Both probably have a good player base, although Combat Commander might have a larger base overall.

5) Clear, well written rules and smooth gameplay - I think both systems are fairly equal in this. If pressed to choose, however, for me it is Conflict of Heroes, which has programmed instruction and slightly clearer presentation.

A couple of closing thoughts:

If you like a tactical game with infantry, heavy weapons, vehicles, and guns, go with Conflict of Heroes. Combat Commander does not have vehicles or guns, just infantry squads and heavy weapons.

You can find the living rules for both game systems, and most likely some videos on You Tube. Check both out and see what seems most attractive to your playing style.

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Joe Kundlak
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Nikoms wrote:
Joeyeti wrote:
Out of these three there will be at least two different answers for you whistle

(Never played any, but the first two get pertracted often.)


Also fighting the urge to recommend Valor & Victory, I would guess?

....You...!!!!!
 
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pavobueno wrote:

Combat Commander does not have vehicles or guns, just infantry squads and heavy weapons.



I must admit it is a pretty big deal then. WW 2 tactical combat without tanks? It does not sets well with me.
Watched Marco's review of Conflict of Heroes expansions - Firefight generator and solo expansion looks like great add-ons! The only problem is game is getting pricey with all this stuff included (from what I see both expansions contain only deck of cards yet each one costs 50 dollars in polish game stores). Too pricey unfortunately.


Nikoms wrote:

Also fighting the urge to recommend Valor & Victory, I would guess?


Out of curiosity I checked this out - I am suprised how refined PnP game can be. I will check the rules definietly. Looks interesting.
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John McD
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I'd go for CoH. It's good 1v1, it's good solo with the expansion. It's intuitive.

I spent a whole evening with my brother trying to fathom CC and eventually gave up. I'm sure it's a good game, but I do feel it puts simulation as a higher priority than fun.
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Joe Kundlak
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Nikoms wrote:

Also fighting the urge to recommend Valor & Victory, I would guess?

Embir wrote:

Out of curiosity I checked this out - I am suprised how refined PnP game can be. I will check the rules definietly. Looks interesting.


Sure, give it a whirl. It also exists on Vassal, so you can play with a willing individual online or turn-based (would play myself, but have virtually no time for Vassal currently, given other projects and family etc.).

The game page section "Community Wiki" lists the "Essential files for new players", with which you can start to play three scenarios created by the designer himself. If you find out you like V&V, you can print out further countersheets, maps and scenarios and go from there.

The rules are reasonably light to pick up quickly, there are summary sheets in the Files section as well.


There, Greg, happy????? shakemodest
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BlackSpy wrote:
I spent a whole evening with my brother trying to fathom CC and eventually gave up. I'm sure it's a good game, but I do feel it puts simulation as a higher priority than fun.

That has to be the first time I've ever seen CC referred to as more simulative than fun. Ever. Are you sure you ain't one of the ASL guys logged in as John, just trying to raise trouble?
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Ben Bosmans
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For solo play, there really is no competition like many stated above: COH Atb with the Eastern Front Solo expansion.

For variety certainly the ASL system, although I find it very taxing if you want to play that one solo. The elaborated sequence of play and constantly act/react on both sides makes it too cumbersome, certainly for a tactical WW2 game.

I have almost all historical modules for ASL but they no longer hit the table since I just started playing CoH solo.

Other WW2 tactical games I play are the DDay series of John Butterfield.

Up Front is extremely good but it is OOP and soso for solo play.


My only complaint is that Academy Games takes ages for new CoH solo boxes on Guadalcanal and Storms of Steel, but in hours having fun in solo mode, it beats anything.

But then ... these days I am for 95% a solo player.

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Russ Williams
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Yeah, the surprising idea that CC is more simulation than fun is a new one for me also. CC sure seems very fun, and playing it is often described as e.g. reading a WW2 comic book or watching a WW2 action film.


FWIW full ASL seems taxing to learn regardless of whether one is playing solo or 2-player. I played ASL Starter Kit 1, however, and found it to be much simpler than full ASL: learnable and enjoyably playable by soloing both sides. (There is also a homebrew AI solitaire system discussed in many forum threads which seems to be gaining fans, but I've not tried it.)


Despite the Up Front kickstarter edition fiasco which failed, Up Front is not out of print:
http://www.wargamevault.com/product/148406/Up-Front-Complete...
(But indeed, it's not a game I would go to for soloing both sides, due to the hands of cards.)


The Lock n Load system just released a solitaire module supposedly based on CoH's and licensed from CoH, but forum posts I've read suggest that you have to make a lot of judgment-call decisions for the AI. :/ I've not played any LnL games.


There is a very simple small press WW2 tactical system Combat Leader which includes a true solitaire (i.e. compete against AI player) expansion. It's simple and fast, but lacks the atmosphere and simulative feel of the other better known WW2 tactical games.
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John McD
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Maybe that's where I went wrong. I approached it as a simulation and tried to understand it as a simulation and got no where.

I will take it out again soon and try and play it as a fun game.

CoH is definitely a fun game though!
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Hello
I think the first question here is what scale in tactical. For me there are 3 tactical scales; man to man, squad, and platoon.

I do not enjoy man to man games so I cannot make suggestions there. If you are interested in squad level I would like to suggest Lock n Load Tactical. IF you are interested in platoon level may I suggest the Nations at War series.

Each game is self contained meaning that you do not need to buy expansions. Lock n Load Tactical is impulse based and has a solo system (sold separately) that allows you to play solo with any scenario in any module.


Nations at War - same deal all games are self contained meaning no base game or expansion needed. This system is chit pull so soloing is very easy.

Rules for both are available for download free at their site.

DISCLAIMER- I am involved with LnL Publishing so I have a bias but these systems are popular and are supported well by us and the community.

I would also add that the components are top notch and require no clipping of counters.

https://store.lnlpublishing.com/

Thank you
Sean Druelinger

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Embir wrote:
Ok Guys,
so my descent into wargaming madness continues.
Now I want to add to my collection some game in tactical scale about WW2.
I did a little bit of research and this are the games that picked my interest:
1) Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear
2) Combat Commander: Europe
3) Combat Infantry


As you can see everybody has their own opinion on what is the ideal game for you with some adding their favourite game to your list above. All are good suggestions.

Here is the list of your criteria for the chosen game.

Embir wrote:

Now question to experienced gamers who played those titles, which one of those games would be the best for me, asuming I expect following things:
1) replayability
2) soloable
3) providing a lot of options as core set, without need of buying constant expansions (hello FFG)
4) reasonable player base - tournament scene, potential for finding gaming partners
5) clear, well written rules and smooth gameplay

Thanks in advance for all the answers.


They all adhere to your list in varying degrees but the real test is if you like the gameplay. This is going to be hard to decide by reading and watching alone but quite often a game which seems appealing doesn't quite hit that sweet spot. I could list all the things that bug me in each game but to another player these items might not be an issue.

Each game mentioned in this thread has a fan base who love their game. No one is wrong in their choice we just prefer subtle differences which have a big influence on our preferences.
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Do you expect the game to depict some vehicles ? If yes, forget CCE.
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