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Subject: Uh-oh, now they're shooting white guys rss

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J.D. Hall
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I stand by my assertion that, beyond police training, the major factor in this seeming rash of police shootings is the fact there are way, way too many guns on the street. Just my opinion.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/19/georgia-tech-3-arrested...

Five cops with guns drawn surrounding a man wielding something silver. All of them had tasers. Yet they shot this man/woman down. The backstory on this, from his/her father, is the person who was shot had a history of mental illness, and had attempted suicide earlier. The individual had self-identified as gender bi-nary just two years ago, which, combined with the mental illness aspect, means this individual really should have been under the care of a mental health provider, not stuck away at school. Hard to find good guys in this one.
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remorseless1 wrote:
Five cops with guns drawn surrounding a man wielding something silver. All of them had tasers. Yet they shot this man/woman down. The backstory on this, from his/her father, is the person who was shot had a history of mental illness, and had attempted suicide earlier. The individual had self-identified as gender bi-nary...
It's okay, this person identified as intersex, and we all know they aren't really people anyhow.
Carry on, nothing to see here.
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Andre
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Actually the investigation I suspect will hinge around the fact that she wielded a knife and approached the officers, who had guns trained on her. The parents, and most others watching the video are questioning why lethal force was used. She might have just as easily been disabled by the police. One might say their lives were at risk, but the person in the video appears to be more in distress, than actively hostile. While it is true that she was continuing to aproach them while being warned about the situation, I personally do not think they had to use deadly force here. One wonders why police on a college campus don't have other weapons that might bring her down, but not kill, i think even a strong mace or pepper spray in this situation would have worked.
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Damian
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remorseless1 wrote:
I stand by my assertion that, beyond police training, the major factor in this seeming rash of police shootings is the fact there are way, way too many guns on the street. Just my opinion.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/19/georgia-tech-3-arrested...

Five cops with guns drawn surrounding a man wielding something silver. All of them had tasers. Yet they shot this man/woman down. The backstory on this, from his/her father, is the person who was shot had a history of mental illness, and had attempted suicide earlier. The individual had self-identified as gender bi-nary just two years ago, which, combined with the mental illness aspect, means this individual really should have been under the care of a mental health provider, not stuck away at school. Hard to find good guys in this one.

Georgia Tech police do not carry Tasers. The student was carrying a Leatherman-type tool, and the police assumed it was a knife, as can be heard on the video as they are shouting "Put the knife down". This was not gun-related in any way.
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J.D. Hall
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Basically, what it comes down to is an extremely disturbed young person who showed a tremendous amount of promise committed "suicide by cop." Yet the US spends far more money on law enforcement and incarceration than on mental health. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
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Andre
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/19/opinions/suicide-by-cop-opinio...

This shows the video. He took three steps forward and was shot, in the heart, not sure the policeman could not have attempted to disable with a thigh shot, there was still some distance between the victim and the shooting officer at the time of the shot. And there was more than one officer there.
 
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Josh
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abadolato01 wrote:
Actually the investigation I suspect will hinge around the fact that she wielded a knife and approached the officers, who had guns trained on her. The parents, and most others watching the video are questioning why lethal force was used. She might have just as easily been disabled by the police. One might say their lives were at risk, but the person in the video appears to be more in distress, than actively hostile. While it is true that she was continuing to aproach them while being warned about the situation, I personally do not think they had to use deadly force here. One wonders why police on a college campus don't have other weapons that might bring her down, but not kill, i think even a strong mace or pepper spray in this situation would have worked.


The 'knife' in question wasn't actually presented (no blade out) it was a collapsed blade on a utility tool.
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Rachel Simmons
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Police handling of the mentally ill has been problematic for some time. They are badly under-trained and tend to see a disoriented person as a threat requiring the use of lethal force.
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abadolato01 wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/19/opinions/suicide-by-cop-opinio...

This shows the video. He took three steps forward and was shot, in the heart, not sure the policeman could not have attempted to disable with a thigh shot, there was still some distance between the victim and the shooting officer at the time of the shot. And there was more than one officer there.


To be fair, Officers are not trained to shot at limbs but center mass for the following reasons

1) They are hard to hit
2) If you miss, bullets can hit others (heck, if they hit, than easily do a through and through)
3) Limb shots are not guaranteed to incapacitate
3) Center mass shots have a significantly higher % to stop (granted, this tends to have a permanent resolution)
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Andre
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Utrecht wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/19/opinions/suicide-by-cop-opinio...

This shows the video. He took three steps forward and was shot, in the heart, not sure the policeman could not have attempted to disable with a thigh shot, there was still some distance between the victim and the shooting officer at the time of the shot. And there was more than one officer there.


To be fair, Officers are not trained to shot at limbs but center mass for the following reasons

1) They are hard to hit
2) If you miss, bullets can hit others (heck, if they hit, than easily do a through and through)
3) Limb shots are not guaranteed to incapacitate
3) Center mass shots have a significantly higher % to stop (granted, this tends to have a permanent resolution)


Although I would tend to agree with you, the video does speak loudly, and I cannot help but feel that they could have de-escalated this or done something to incapacitate. The advance was not particularly threatening, and had the cop simply backed away, they may have had more time to talk the victim down.
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Mac Mcleod
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Okay... the police officer

* Did not shoot within 2 seconds of arrival on the scene
* The police officer repeatedly backed away and even put a barrier between himself and the student.
* The student did not respond to clear instructions.
* The student continued to advance on the officer.
* A "thigh" shot can kill you in seconds if it hits your femoral artery.
* Police are trained to shoot center of mass. Everyone knows that. And there is not a problem with that training. It keeps officers from being killed as they try to go for some fancy shot and miss entirely.

In my opinion (and you know I post a lot of bad police shootings) the officer was completely justified. I'm very sorry they had to kill someone because as responsible police officers, it's probably going to haunt them and given the person killed, they'll probably get a lot of grief (observe threads here).

IF they had tasers, this would have been a good situation for tasers. However, I don't see it being easy to switch from a gun to a knife safely when someone is advancing on you.

I found the advance creepy and threatening as hell in the context.

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Rachel Simmons
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maxo-texas wrote:
I found the advance creepy and threatening as hell in the context.


And this is seeing someone who is disoriented as a threat requiring lethal force.
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Eric Tama
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maxo-texas wrote:
Okay... the police officer

* Did not shoot within 2 seconds of arrival on the scene
* The police officer repeatedly backed away and even put a barrier between himself and the student.
* The student did not respond to clear instructions.
* The student continued to advance on the officer.
* A "thigh" shot can kill you in seconds if it hits your femoral artery.
* Police are trained to shoot center of mass. Everyone knows that. And there is not a problem with that training. It keeps officers from being killed as they try to go for some fancy shot and miss entirely.

In my opinion (and you know I post a lot of bad police shootings) the officer was completely justified. I'm very sorry they had to kill someone because as responsible police officers, it's probably going to haunt them and given the person killed, they'll probably get a lot of grief (observe threads here).

IF they had tasers, this would have been a good situation for tasers. However, I don't see it being easy to switch from a gun to a knife safely when someone is advancing on you.

I found the advance creepy and threatening as hell in the context.



If this happened in Great Britain the student would still be alive. There are videos showing british police arresting men actually swinging a blade around. This didn't need to happen like it did.
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Andre
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maxo-texas wrote:
Okay... the police officer

* Did not shoot within 2 seconds of arrival on the scene
* The police officer repeatedly backed away and even put a barrier between himself and the student.
* The student did not respond to clear instructions.
* The student continued to advance on the officer.
* A "thigh" shot can kill you in seconds if it hits your femoral artery.
* Police are trained to shoot center of mass. Everyone knows that. And there is not a problem with that training. It keeps officers from being killed as they try to go for some fancy shot and miss entirely.

In my opinion (and you know I post a lot of bad police shootings) the officer was completely justified. I'm very sorry they had to kill someone because as responsible police officers, it's probably going to haunt them and given the person killed, they'll probably get a lot of grief (observe threads here).

IF they had tasers, this would have been a good situation for tasers. However, I don't see it being easy to switch from a gun to a knife safely when someone is advancing on you.

I found the advance creepy and threatening as hell in the context.



You have justified what the courts likely will as well. But I can understand why people might be angry at this video, and seeing it as just another cop that used excessive force, to stop a threatening situation. Look at it in the eyes of the victims family, if you were that victims family member, do you feel that they used excessive force? Standoffs like this can last for hours, the whole incident appeared to take less than 2 minutes.
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Mac Mcleod
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Eric_Tama wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Okay... the police officer

* Did not shoot within 2 seconds of arrival on the scene
* The police officer repeatedly backed away and even put a barrier between himself and the student.
* The student did not respond to clear instructions.
* The student continued to advance on the officer.
* A "thigh" shot can kill you in seconds if it hits your femoral artery.
* Police are trained to shoot center of mass. Everyone knows that. And there is not a problem with that training. It keeps officers from being killed as they try to go for some fancy shot and miss entirely.

In my opinion (and you know I post a lot of bad police shootings) the officer was completely justified. I'm very sorry they had to kill someone because as responsible police officers, it's probably going to haunt them and given the person killed, they'll probably get a lot of grief (observe threads here).

IF they had tasers, this would have been a good situation for tasers. However, I don't see it being easy to switch from a gun to a knife safely when someone is advancing on you.

I found the advance creepy and threatening as hell in the context.



If this happened in Great Britain the student would still be alive. There are videos showing british police arresting men actually swinging a blade around. This didn't need to happen like it did.


I agree. There are a lot less guns in great britain.

You do however, have officers stabbed while trying to handle similar situations

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/brave-pol...

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/officer-stabbed-outside-west...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer...

I admire the hell out of british police officers but they are policing a mostly unarmed country. I know a half dozen people personally who own guns. And from the stabbed dead british officers on the list above, it's obvious knives are life threatening. A person with the will to kill can do a lot of damage in a few seconds with a knife.

If british officers were faced with an armed public, they would need guns. And once they had guns, they'd probably deal with knife attacks similarly. OTH, our officers have picked up some bad attitudes from poor training programs which emphasized the officers safety over the public's safety. And our officers ignore crimes other officers commit here. It happens in britain too (seen it portrayed on british tv shows often enough).


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Rachel Simmons
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maxo-texas wrote:

You do however, have officers stabbed while trying to handle similar situations


The problem here is less about how to respond to knife attacks than how to deal with the mentally ill. When police don't know how to recognize and handle the situations, they tend to turn deadly.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/06/health/police-mental-health-tr...

"Last year, the Washington Post released an analysis of the 462 police shooting deaths it counted in the United States in the first six months of 2015. The newspaper found that one-fourth of those deaths involved people 'in the throes of emotional or mental crisis.'

"...

"Traditional training teaches police to control situations by demanding compliance, and the unpredictable nature of a person with a psychiatric condition can be misinterpreted as a threat and quickly escalate to violence. CIT training is meant to prevent that.

"...

"'A big chunk of the training is verbal de-escalation skills,' said Laura Usher, a CIT program team manager at the National Alliance on Mental Illness. She said officers practice skills with scenario-based role playing.

"While some officers might typically revert to traditional policing techniques, CIT officers are trained to keep a safe distance, step back from a situation and let the person in crisis vent. They validate behavior and use 'mirroring' tactics."

---

Better trained police would save lives.
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Carl Parsons
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With what evidence I've seen I have to lean towards the cops doing the best they could. It looks like they tried to deescalate and avoid contact. It didn't look like the student gave them much choice.
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Rachel Simmons
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batman wrote:
With what evidence I've seen I have to lean towards the cops doing the best they could. It looks like they tried to deescalate and avoid contact. It didn't look like the student gave them much choice.

Standing close to the student and yelling threats over and over ISN'T de-escalating. That's escalating.

I would agree that that's probably all they were trained to do. That's the problem.
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Mac Mcleod
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bowen wrote:
batman wrote:
With what evidence I've seen I have to lean towards the cops doing the best they could. It looks like they tried to deescalate and avoid contact. It didn't look like the student gave them much choice.

Standing close to the student and yelling threats over and over ISN'T de-escalating. That's escalating.

I would agree that that's probably all they were trained to do. That's the problem.


Yes, I agree training could and should be better. I also think some training programs can be actively worse.

http://www.cableweb.org/resources/the-dutiful-mind-police-tr...

Quote:
To keep from being “deliberately indifferent”, I believe that all personnel should receive more training than they currently have on dealing with the mentally ill (not to mention that it is the right thing to do). In Akron we saw to it that all our officers received an additional 8 hours of this type of training during our annual In-Service. We even gave a modified version to our Safety Communications Center call takers and dispatchers by request. It has helped them in dealing with the initial call over the phone and properly sending CIT officers to the scene.

It was easy to provide instructors because I had the resources of the partnerships we had formed and current CIT officer experience. Incidentally, at least 90% of these mandated trainings were highly rated by the rest of our department.

Now persons in mental crisis or their loved ones call specifically for CIT officers to respond to their needs as do EMS personnel if the person is violent. The word has spread that there is a new kind of policing in town for those with special needs.


Appropriate Weapons for Dealing with the Mentally Ill
Since police training bureaus now know and teach about the 21’ Rule (whereby a person with an edged weapon can traverse this distance and stab you before you can un-snap your holster, draw your weapon and fire) it seems the mentally ill having been shot in ever increasing numbers. The edged weapon seems to be their weapon for self defense choice. And, in their delusion they ignore an officer’s command to stay back, and when they violate the 21’ space and become a legitimate life threat to the officer he/she has little choice in the matter.

In Akron, CIT officers carry a taser that shoots out probes that will go 21’. It has proven itself time and again and prevented officer’s from living with the memory of having to take the life of someone who was sick. No matter how dangerous the person was, when you shoot a mentally ill person you are never a hero. Someone is always there to say what a shame it was and what a nice person he/she was when on their medication. Wasn’t there something else the police could have done? Did they really have to use deadly force?


That said, the officer was backing away continuously and the student was advancing continuously.

Also, it was called in as 'someone with a knife' not by a friend or relative who knew it was someone mentally ill. If the student had killed and injured several students while police dithered then everyone would be blaming the police. The officers didn't arrive on the scene knowing they were dealing with someone mentally ill.

I agree with you that we need better training, appropriately used tasers, and so on.
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Carl Parsons
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bowen wrote:
batman wrote:
With what evidence I've seen I have to lean towards the cops doing the best they could. It looks like they tried to deescalate and avoid contact. It didn't look like the student gave them much choice.

Standing close to the student and yelling threats over and over ISN'T de-escalating. That's escalating.

I would agree that that's probably all they were trained to do. That's the problem.


Our ideas of what close is are different. It looked like they were trying to keep their distance and that it was the student's insistence on closing that gap that finally prompted their action.
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bowen wrote:
Police handling of the mentally ill has been problematic for some time. They are badly under-trained and tend to see a disoriented person as a threat requiring the use of lethal force.
And the frustrating thing is that there are law enforcement training programs for how to interact with the mentally ill, and as always I suspect that institutional culture plays a big role.

Case in point: My hometown is the site of the "state hospital," which in its glory days housed hundreds of people with severe mental illness. Because of this, my town has always had a sizable population of really ill people. The cops have made it a point of pride that they've never shot anyone who was mentally ill, and if there is a tense situation the SOP isn't to go and whomp the shit out of someone, it's to ensure everyone's safety. Not every situation has "a suspect." In the 1970s and 80s there was an infamous local, who in earlier times would have been called a "raving street lunatic," who after he died his family in the obituary thanked the local P.D. for never having arrested him even once.
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They should have tasers or pepper spray or even collapsible batons for this sort of thing.
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Rachel Simmons
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batman wrote:
Our ideas of what close is are different. It looked like they were trying to keep their distance and that it was the student's insistence on closing that gap that finally prompted their action.


The student was moving at about 1 MPH, first one way, then another. The officers attempted no communication except to yell commands with weapons drawn before finally shooting. Yelling commands isn’t going to work with someone who is disoriented and not understanding what is happening.

It would have been better for the officers to have not been there than being there and acting the way they acted. It was an unnecessary tragedy.
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maxo-texas wrote:


I agree. There are a lot less guns in great britain.

You do however, have officers stabbed while trying to handle similar situations

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/brave-pol...

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/officer-stabbed-outside-west...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer...

I admire the hell out of british police officers but they are policing a mostly unarmed country. I know a half dozen people personally who own guns. And from the stabbed dead british officers on the list above, it's obvious knives are life threatening. A person with the will to kill can do a lot of damage in a few seconds with a knife.

If british officers were faced with an armed public, they would need guns. And once they had guns, they'd probably deal with knife attacks similarly. OTH, our officers have picked up some bad attitudes from poor training programs which emphasized the officers safety over the public's safety. And our officers ignore crimes other officers commit here. It happens in britain too (seen it portrayed on british tv shows often enough).




From the wikipedia list, there have been 11 deaths in the line of duty in the last 10 years. Two were stabbed, three were killed by or in vehicles, four were shot and two collapsed and died (so presumably these were unrelated to being a police officer ie natural causes). Hardly points to a conclusion that knife attacks are especially lethal or require anyone with a knofe to be shot. Of the two officers stabbed, one was in the recent terrorist attack on Westminster Bridge, so not exactly a normal knife-wielder. Presumably there are thousands and thousands of knives being brandished around the country, one death (or two if you include the terrorist) doesn't seem that many. It certainly suggests that the vast majority are dealt with without needing firearms.
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Many American cops don't seem know what deescalation is.

We badly need to retrain all of them, I'm tired of seeing videos like this.
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