Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
7 Posts

Mice and Mystics» Forums » General

Subject: "Legendary Items" in M&M - room for growth. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jeremy Glassman
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey y'all,

So I want to talk about something that I think would benefit M&M and similar games like it, as well as discuss the nature of the 'dungeon crawl' and story-driven games genre. This is the beginning of a series of posts I have in mind for M&M, on general discussion in regards to where M&M has room for added potential.

I think a big reason why many players including myself enjoy games like M&M is for the thrill and the excitement of getting new items. Inherent in human nature is the the fact that we just like getting new things; new stuff! But what's even more special and awe-inspiring is if we know we stumble upon a very rare item, a talisman, a unique artifact that is hard to find, or difficult to acquire. That's when we find our adventures really worth while! I'm thinking about any rpg game, we love finding rare loot! I think this aspect of "legendary items" is pretty much absent from M&M.

When I discuss legendary items, I am speaking of items or equipment with very powerful one-time, or lasting affects that are difficult to acquire.
I think Sorrow & Remembrance does a good job of this with the Sorrow Blade, and Ring of Remembrance but I think just 2 items is too few!
What if Brodie dropped a legendary item when you defeat him? Or what if when you complete an optional quest like Miz Maggie, you get a special 'pie' item? Achievements are cool, but what's much more engaging is an actual item that you can use to interact with the game space; a tool. It makes your efforts much more worth while.

What if during the course of the campaign, you could search for special 'gems' or when you successfully search, there is a 'gem' item. When you find 3 gems, you can take it to the shop, and the shop owner will craft you a special rare item. (The gems you would be able to carry over in-between chapters).

Even "armor sets", or rather items/equipment that have synergy with each other is kind of missed. For example, the fact that Filch interacts in a unique way with knives is cool, but there needs to be more of that! Furthermore, what if armor equipment had a conditional effect: if you have part 2 of this armor set equipped, you gain a cool ability or something.
This would not increase complexity because it could just be written on the card.

I think the game would benefit quite greatly from rare, hard-to-acquire, hard-to-find/items you have to work for with a high payoff, and it's kind of shocking to see that they are mainly left out of the game.

Lastly, I think the fact that items do not carry over from mission to mission is largely irrelevant to this matter because a) you can introduce a specific item that carries over (like the gems), and b) the item would be very fun to use even for just a chapter. S&R has the Cat's Claw Horn, which is a good example, but they should have more search-deck-esque items like that, rather than out-of-combat items.

Thanks for reading, and I'm curious about what you have to say!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Falenthal Greenleaf
Spain
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not sure how or in which area M&M should grow to overcome the fact that, some part of it, feels repetitive and not-fun.

Right now I've begun playing Descent 2 with the same friend I've played the whole M&M campaign. So I'll try to see what works in Descent and if and how it could be translated to M&M without altering the game too much.

Although we've only done the first tutorial scenario, I've already seen that the importance of movement is vital to the game:

* Searches are located, and not always easy to reach.
* Scenarios have bottle-necks, obstacles, etc. that gets you thinking where and how to move.
* Being able to choose the order of action makes the group think and discuss different options that feel more colaborative.

Once we've played some more, I'll have more info to give an opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Glassman
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Falenthal wrote:
I'm not sure how or in which area M&M should grow to overcome the fact that, some part of it, feels repetitive and not-fun.


Thanks for the comments Falenthal!

I think a lot of the reason M&M can get tedious and boring is because enemies start to become a Chore. This is linked to the fact that cheese becomes less of an incentive and less enjoyable to acquire when you have a bunch of abilities. I mention that mainly in this post here: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1851351/surprises-enemies-d...

Enemies become more boring to fight when they don't have a reward that has perceived value by the players when you kill them. This is the problem in the video game Paper Mario Sticker Star where enemies don't drop XP, or really anything. In addition, I believe enemies would benefit from being more of a pinata where when you defeat them, they explode with goodies/items/treasure. I think this is integral for keeping excitement.

Overall, excitement happens as a direct correlation to surprise in my opinion. The more hidden game components, the more excitement the game brings. This is why when you have full knowledge of a lot of things in M&M (by design, and also when you have one play-through or more) it becomes less enjoyable.

M&M needs more surprises; surprise in combat (items you get when you defeat enemies), surprise in exploration (where does THIS tile lead too? (more of a dungeon crawl reveal like Warhammer Quest)), and surprise in quests (what side quest will be here, what bonus/secret is here?) I believe this is where M&M lacks after a bit.

I hope Jerry takes into account some of these things; I think Stuffed Fables implements some of them, so hopefully there's a bright future for M&M.

Let me know how you like Descent 2.0!! I hear it's quite fun though I have not gotten around to playing it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hladky
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
badge
Working on Perdition's Mouth game content
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Master Yoda said: "War does not make one great." And I think he is right. Killing 20 rats does not teach you how to cast a new spell.

I do not think that the item drops from the killed enemies or XP would make the game better. You would simply be flowing in stuff and drawing the loot will become part of the repetitive stuff. I know many games (including mentioned Descent 2), that does not use this mechanism and are good. I am personally involved in Perdition's Mouth development and it also does not use this mechanism.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Glassman
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So how would you make combat more enjoyable/exciting? Just curious.

Diablo 1 & 3 (never played 2) are two games that I largely enjoyed and have influenced the RPG genre for decades to come (Diablo 1 at least).
In that game, it is inherently enjoyable to hack&slash enemies because of the tons of loot/gold that pours out of them, and the chance for that legendary item.

I'm not saying it is necessary for enemies to drop loot, I'm just brainstorming.

What I think would be more enjoyable is if there were 'rarer'/legendary items of valor in the game. Meaning more items that are hard to come by rather than just "searching." Which actually is a flawed mechanic I believe (All the players I have played with think it is un-fun for searching to take up your entire turn, only to not succeed).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hladky
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
badge
Working on Perdition's Mouth game content
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
By skipping D2 you skipped the best part of the series. D3 is not bad but many people returned to 2 after finishing 3.

What I personally like the most is trying to figure out how to deal with new situations. D2 has this a lot as the various combinations of enemies are attacking so it is not beating the same situation again and again. Collecting hordes of random equipment is necessity in the whole Diablo series, as you may get some better piece of equipment from time time, however it is repetitive task, that usually ends by selling garbage stuff.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Glassman
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see your point about enemies dropping loot and how it wouldn't really fix the game.

I think I will start playing without the house rule "located search" (sorry falenthal). I have found that in combination with movement house rules sometimes you can't do anything on your turn and that's not fun when you're playing with a group of 4 players (which I always do) because some players feel left out.

In M&M, there's really not much you can do on a turn. It's pretty much attack, or search. Mainly, the first round of combat the enemies are far away so players cannot attack right away (if they are melee and we are using the movement house rule (paws + 1) which I think is necessary). If I take away searching, you basically can't do anything on your first turn, especially if you don't have many abilities.

Ok, so even though I've added normal searching back into the game, you still can really only choose to do 2 things on your turn: attack or search.

Searching is generally not fun when you "don't get it" because it feels like your turn has been wasted.

I think Stuffed Fables mitigates a lot of these design problems and gives the players a lot more meaningful decisions.

Falenthal, please share how Descent 2nd Ed modifies your view of Mice and Mystics!

Although Stuffed Fables looks very fun, I enjoy the universe of Mice and Mystics MUCH more. So hopefully Jerry will include some of his design ideas into a new M&M expansion. But M&M can't really change much since they are 2 fundamentally different games, and I wouldn't want M&M to change THAT much. I would just like to add some more exploration and mystery.

Let's not get side tracked from the initial meaning of this article.
Although enemy drops may not increase the fun-factor of gameplay, I DO think rarer one-time legendary items/equipment/artifacts would, much like the Sorrow Blade/Ring of Remembrance but more of them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.