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Subject: Several questions rss

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David Kershaw
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Did a solo run through and I have some questions/assumptions that don't seem to be covered in other threads. Apologies in advance if these were in the rules and I somehow missed them!

1. Mornier is a "D" (Desaix) unit. So therefore he cannot be moved until Desaix chit is in play on turn 5 - is this correct?

2. Bombard: I measured nearest point to nearest point, irrespective of arc of fire - which is quite generous - to determine if the artillery could fire. Is that right?

3. Road move - I assumed that you do not pay the 1/3 manoeuvre penalty for turns in the road.

4. When a HQ is moved through by the enemy I moved it back 1/3 cavalry move.

5. Do you go spent (flipped) for just moving through a building, or do you have to actually occupy it?

6. Cavalry cannot retreat before combat with infantry - in cases where the cavalry has already moved and then the enemy infantry moves to contact.

7. If you chose to retreat in combat you go spent.

8. Can spent artillery bombard?

9. In cases where there are 2 supported lines fighting each other (aA - Bb) and both A and B are forced to retreat in the first combat, do their supports have to fight or does the attacker optional retreat come into play first?

10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted.

11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere).

12. Bombard - what is the gap allowed if there is a friendly units in the way between the artillery and the target - I assumed any gap but the measuring point had to go through that gap. Hills didn't factor for me, but could you fire over a friendly unit between the artillery and the target?

13. I only allowed flank attacks if the final move to contact the centre point of the attacker was behind the front edge line of the defender.

Thanks in advance,

Dave


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Scott Moore
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I'm only just starting to learn the game myself. But I have received some rules clarifications from the designer.

kerpob2 wrote:
Did a solo run through and I have some questions/assumptions that don't seem to be covered in other threads. Apologies in advance if these were in the rules and I somehow missed them!

1. Mornier is a "D" (Desaix) unit. So therefore he cannot be moved until Desaix chit is in play on turn 5 - is this correct?
I don't know.

2. Bombard: I measured nearest point to nearest point, irrespective of arc of fire - which is quite generous - to determine if the artillery could fire. Is that right?
There is an arc of fire up to 45 degrees on each side.

3. Road move - I assumed that you do not pay the 1/3 manoeuvre penalty for turns in the road.
No, you do not pay to change the facing once in column.

4. When a HQ is moved through by the enemy I moved it back 1/3 cavalry move.
I have not done this myself. Obviously you'll have to move the HQ if the enemy unit stops in its location. But I see the logic in moving it back - after all, the HQ staff would want to avoid the enemy unit.

5. Do you go spent (flipped) for just moving through a building, or do you have to actually occupy it?
To count as a building, the majority of the piece has to be located in it. Whether this applies to moving through, I don't know.

6. Cavalry cannot retreat before combat with infantry - in cases where the cavalry has already moved and then the enemy infantry moves to contact.
I believe that is correct.

7. If you chose to retreat in combat you go spent.
I believe that is correct.

8. Can spent artillery bombard?
Nothing in the rules suggests they cannot. But it's not an entirely unreasonable assumption.

9. In cases where there are 2 supported lines fighting each other (aA - Bb) and both A and B are forced to retreat in the first combat, do their supports have to fight or does the attacker optional retreat come into play first?
I would think the latter.

10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted.
That makes sense to me.

11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere).
Yes.

12. Bombard - what is the gap allowed if there is a friendly units in the way between the artillery and the target - I assumed any gap but the measuring point had to go through that gap. Hills didn't factor for me, but could you fire over a friendly unit between the artillery and the target?
Enemy units block LOS but friendly do not. So, no gap is needed. I was surprised at this rule myself, but that's how the designer intends it.

13. I only allowed flank attacks if the final move to contact the centre point of the attacker was behind the front edge line of the defender.
The rules don't seem to be very strict here, but how you play it makes sense if you want to be more precise about the conditions for flank attacks.

Thanks in advance,

Dave


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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
1. Mornier is a "D" (Desaix) unit. So therefore he cannot be moved until Desaix chit is in play on turn 5 - is this correct?

No - He moves with Bonapartes wing until Desaix enter the game.


2. Bombard: I measured nearest point to nearest point, irrespective of arc of fire - which is quite generous - to determine if the artillery could fire. Is that right?

THe majority of the artillery unit must be within range of the majority of the target unit. And have the right facing, but the artillery unit may change facing before firing.

3. Road move - I assumed that you do not pay the 1/3 manoeuvre penalty for turns in the road.

Correct

4. When a HQ is moved through by the enemy I moved it back 1/3 cavalry move.

That sounds like a good idea. The rules dont say anything about it other than leaders cant be harmed by enemy units

5. Do you go spent (flipped) for just moving through a building, or do you have to actually occupy it?

I asked the designer and his reply was that units that move through the buildings dont get spent.

6. Cavalry cannot retreat before combat with infantry - in cases where the cavalry has already moved and then the enemy infantry moves to contact.

Why not?
Retreat before combat takes place during the combat phase, and has little to do with who moved first.


7. If you chose to retreat in combat you go spent.

If you make a voluntary retreat after a combat round you get spent (if not already so).
Cavalry doing retreat before combat does not get spent.

8. Can spent artillery bombard?

I assume they can, as the rules dont say anything about it and spent units are not otherwise prohibited from doing combat.

9. In cases where there are 2 supported lines fighting each other (aA - Bb) and both A and B are forced to retreat in the first combat, do their supports have to fight or does the attacker optional retreat come into play first?

After the first round where A and B retreated the defender first and then the attacker choses if they want to retreat with their remaining units instead of continuing the combat. If either of them retreat the combat ends.

10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted.

What is interpenetration?
If it is movement related the only restriction is that units in road column must stay on the road and may not move closer to enemy units than 1/3 move.


11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere).

Yes.
The designer suggests making this crossing cost an additional 1/3 move as the crossing was via ferrys and not a bridge but he wants players to decide for themselves.


12. Bombard - what is the gap allowed if there is a friendly units in the way between the artillery and the target - I assumed any gap but the measuring point had to go through that gap. Hills didn't factor for me, but could you fire over a friendly unit between the artillery and the target?

Friendly units dont block artillery fire in any way.

13. I only allowed flank attacks if the final move to contact the centre point of the attacker was behind the front edge line of the defender.

That sounds like a rear attack (which is handled excactly the same as a flank attack)
Attacks where the middle of the attacking unit touches the short side of the defending unit also count as a flank attack. See the example pics in the rulebook.


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David Kershaw
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Hmm - couple of responses. Here are my thoughts on the contentious ones in bold:

Quote:
1. Mornier is a "D" (Desaix) unit. So therefore he cannot be moved until Desaix chit is in play on turn 5 - is this correct?

Checking the actual battle, Mornier did advance with the Guard so it seems fair that he is commanded by Napoleon's "B" force until the Desaix chit is in play.

2. Bombard: I measured nearest point to nearest point, irrespective of arc of fire - which is quite generous - to determine if the artillery could fire. Is that right?

The majority of unit to majority of unit suggestion seems a bit awkward to measure, but I'll have to try it. Absolutely disagree that the artillery can move (pivot) before firing. Either that, or a penalty of -1 to hit rolls if has to pivot to obtain a target outside a 45 degree arc.

6. Cavalry cannot retreat before combat with infantry - in cases where the cavalry has already moved and then the enemy infantry moves to contact.

The answer from Brian is confusing. I thought there was no retreat allowed before the combat dice are rolled.

8. Can spent artillery bombard?

I think there should be a -1 for them, otherwise artillery have no disadvantage being spent - and I'm thinking about cases where they get hit by enemy artillery (which cannot destroy them). Other units I can understand fighting at full strength even when spent since they die faster, but artillery seem to have to be different.

10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted.

Interpenetration means that a unit moving on the road cannot use road movement to go through another unit on the road. A common enough problem in this period which resulted in traffic jams.

11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere).

I made this crossing quite brutal to use. Firstly only 1 unit can fit into Monte Castello where it must end its move before crossing (and therefore goes spent as this is a town). Then the crossing is into a wood, so 1/3 move is off for the river and another 1/3 is off for the wood. Then the terrain beyond that is riddled with streams causing more problems. I tried sending the Austrian left wing this way in my first playthrough (see my session report) and it never really got into the battle - a single French unit being sufficient to hold the whole wing off in the dreadful terrain.

12. Bombard - what is the gap allowed if there is a friendly units in the way between the artillery and the target - I assumed any gap but the measuring point had to go through that gap. Hills didn't factor for me, but could you fire over a friendly unit between the artillery and the target?

I disagree on artillery being able to fire through friendly units. There were even incidents in the actual historical battle of Marengo where artillery were masked by their own troops.

13. I only allowed flank attacks if the final move to contact the centre point of the attacker was behind the front edge line of the defender.

To clarify what I considered a flank attack: Draw an imaginary straight line along the front of the target unit and extend it out on either side. If the centre point of the attacker is behind this line when they move into contact then this is a flanking attack, otherwise it is not. This is a pretty common convention in miniatures rules.

 
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Scott Moore
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6. This is on page 6 of the rulebook:
"Cavalry Withdrawal - Defending Cavalry may retreat before combat if in contact with enemy." I think the reference to contact is superfluous, because if there is no contact, then there is no combat.

11. Better to put the units in column, then they don't suffer any of the terrain penalties (unless there is a special rule about the ferry).

I agree with you about the artillery rules.
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David Kershaw
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janos_hunyadi wrote:
6. This is on page 6 of the rulebook:
"Cavalry Withdrawal - Defending Cavalry may retreat before combat if in contact with enemy." I think the reference to contact is superfluous, because if there is no contact, then there is no combat.

11. Better to put the units in column, then they don't suffer any of the terrain penalties (unless there is a special rule about the ferry).

I agree with you about the artillery rules.


Thanks - I'll refer to my original disclaimer re. the cavalry rules: "Apologies in advance if these were in the rules and I somehow missed them!"

I haven't the rulebook handy but I assume the retreat before contact by cavalry is only if infantry contact them.
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:

I haven't the rulebook handy but I assume the retreat before contact by cavalry is only if infantry contact them.


Correct
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Mike Strand
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During the activation phase any unit that activates may move out of contact, that is the whole advantage to moving after another command. After movement, during the combat phase, cavalry may retreat before combat dice are rolled. Any retreat forces the unit to flip to its spent side if not spent already.

Of course, you cannot move through enemy units, and must have at least half a unit width to move between enemy units, but being in contact with an enemy unit does not preclude moving away.

You may ask how a unit can turn 180 degrees while in contact with an enemy unit. This is because the whole division doesn't need to rotate, just each of the regiments turn within the division.
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David Kershaw
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gull2112 wrote:
During the activation phase any unit that activates may move out of contact, that is the whole advantage to moving after another command. After movement, during the combat phase, cavalry may retreat before combat dice are rolled. Any retreat forces the unit to flip to its spent side if not spent already.

Of course, you cannot move through enemy units, and must have at least half a unit width to move between enemy units, but being in contact with an enemy unit does not preclude moving away.

You may ask how a unit can turn 180 degrees while in contact with an enemy unit. This is because the whole division doesn't need to rotate, just each of the regiments turn within the division.


While retreat causes the unit to flip to spent, does a simple move out of contact also cause the unit to flip to spent?
 
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Mike Strand
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Not when done as part of a unit's regular move, but if part of a retreat, voluntary or otherwise, then yes.
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Mike Strand
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1. Mornier is a "D" (Desaix) unit. So therefore he cannot be moved until Desaix chit is in play on turn 5 - is this correct?
Rules state it moves with Napoleon until Desaix shows up.

2. Bombard: I measured nearest point to nearest point, irrespective of arc of fire - which is quite generous - to determine if the artillery could fire. Is that right? Front center to any point

3. Road move - I assumed that you do not pay the 1/3 manoeuvre penalty for turns in the road. nope

4. When a HQ is moved through by the enemy I moved it back 1/3 cavalry move.No, you just move it out of the way, it is assumed that the HQ could easily get out of the way of a moving unit.

5. Do you go spent (flipped) for just moving through a building, or do you have to actually occupy it? Only if you end your turn in the town, if the town is less than half the width of your unit, then it is considered as just on the map for window dressing, no affect in the game. The gentle men's rules we use says that if you want to occupy the town, flip to spent and claimthe defensive bonus, otherwise stay fresh and recieve no benefit from the town.

6. Cavalry cannot retreat before combat with infantry - in cases where the cavalry has already moved and then the enemy infantry moves to contact. No, this is part of the combat phase, as such the movement is a retreat and the cav must flip to spent if fresh, otherwise it simply remains spent

7. If you chose to retreat in combat you go spent. Yes

8. Can spent artillery bombard? No

9. In cases where there are 2 supported lines fighting each other (aA - Bb) and both A and B are forced to retreat in the first combat, do their supports have to fight or does the attacker optional retreat come into play first? The attacker has first option to advance and continue the combat, if it dioes not advance the defender can advance to where the original defender was, but there is no more contact, so combat is over

10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted. the only restriction is you cannot end movement overlapping a friendly unit

11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere). Yes, the authentic map was inaccurate, there is actually a road there, and a bridge. Melas could have went that way, but did not. They wanted you to be able and try that move if you want to, not be arbitrarily prevented from doing it simply because it wasn't attempted historically. I have tried it and feel it isn't a good tactic, others feel it is.

12. Bombard - what is the gap allowed if there is a friendly units in the way between the artillery and the target - I assumed any gap but the measuring point had to go through that gap. Hills didn't factor for me, but could you fire over a friendly unit between the artillery and the target? Friendly units do not block LOS

13. I only allowed flank attacks if the final move to contact the centre point of the attacker was behind the front edge line of the defender. It doesn't matter where you begin from, but if you can reach the point, then you are lined up as you described. If that is not possible due to impassible terrain or the presence of enemy units, you can not flank.

I'll ask the designer how he intended artillery Should be measured.
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David Kershaw
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Thanks Mike for this - very comprehensive. Couple of comments below

gull2112 wrote:
5. Do you go spent (flipped) for just moving through a building, or do you have to actually occupy it? Only if you end your turn in the town, if the town is less than half the width of your unit, then it is considered as just on the map for window dressing, no affect in the game. The gentle men's rules we use says that if you want to occupy the town, flip to spent and claimthe defensive bonus, otherwise stay fresh and recieve no benefit from the town.

I've been thinking about this and going spent for occupying buildings is actually worse than staying fresh in the open - even with the defensive bonus.

Quote:
10. In Road move interpenetration is not permitted. the only restriction is you cannot end movement overlapping a friendly unit

I disagree with this. The literature of the period is full of examples of traffic jams on roads.

Quote:
11. There is a crossing over the Tanaro at Monte Castello (I saw this answered elsewhere). Yes, the authentic map was inaccurate, there is actually a road there, and a bridge. Melas could have went that way, but did not.

I'd like to see where this bridge is mentioned - I cannot find a reference to it.
 
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