Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » General

Subject: Mechaniker Overpowered? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dennis Deschildre
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I've read somewhere on a forum someone thinks the Mechaniker is overpowered. Anyone can shed light on this?

Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tyrael_ wrote:
I've read somewhere on a forum someone thinks the Mechaniker is overpowered. Anyone can shed light on this?

Thanks!


Maybe ask the person who thought so?

I don't think I've heard this claim before. It probably stems from his ability being one of the easiest to understand and use. Some of the other powers are either only useful for certain strategies, or extremely powerful but only in very specific situations.

Giving one of your Apprentices an extra action each round (The Mechaniker) is obviously useful, and you'll be able to use it pretty much every round. But it's probably not going to win you the game outright.

The ability that lets you choose which Performance your opponent performs (Yoruba Spiritmaster if I recall correctly) is going to be used fairly seldom, but could potentially win you the game outright in the last round.

The only ability I haven't really grokked yet is Electra's ability to spend an extra trick marker to get a little bit of extra payout from the performance of the trick. It seems to me that trick markers are too valuable to spend without getting the full payout. On the other hand, I've had times where I've really struggled to get my markers out, so perhaps I should try playing Electra some time, to see if I can make good use of her ability.

I'm guessing that her ability might also be more useful in a four-player game. I've mostly played two-player, and there seems to be a bit less competition over performance-spots in 2p than 4p.

The Gentleman's ability to get fame when going Downtown, to Market Row, etcetera, also seems to be obviously better when playing with more players. The chance to get your own tricks performed by other players are (from my limited experience) much higher in a 4p game than in a 2p game.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
Since i am the source of information. Yes the Mechaniker is overpowered. Not just because the extra apprentice is strong. But because his level 1 spell Levitation and his level 2 spell Bullet Catch overlap in resources. It's easy to score near 200 points with him, without any logical counterplay, if you open up with that spell combo.

I had a few ideas for other characters to get equally high scores, but haven't had the opportunity to play this game since last year.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
Since i am the source of information. Yes the Mechaniker is overpowered. Not just because the extra apprentice is strong. But because his level 1 spell Levitation and his level 2 spell Bullet Catch overlap in resources. It's easy to score near 200 points with him, without any logical counterplay, if you open up with that spell combo.

I had a few ideas for other characters to get equally high scores, but haven't had the opportunity to play this game since last year.


Ah, that's interesting. I'll have to look at that next time I play.

Sidenote: By "extra apprentice", I assume you don't actually mean "an extra apprentice", but are referring to the extra action point that you can give a single apprentice per round?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Keeper of the Sacred Aardvark
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
... because his level 1 spell Levitation and his level 2 spell Bullet Catch overlap in resources.

they have 2 of the same resources but each requires a different third. Plenty of level 1 and level 2 tricks overlap in such a way. also remember, you are not required to only perform tricks from your own school, so theoretically, anyone can perform tricks with overlapping requirements. Not sure why this makes the Mechaniker better than the others (and wouldn't this also apply to Elektra as well then?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
To further clarify: you take the manager: +1 rope, +1 oil as starting equipment. Now you have 2 rope, 2 oil and you just need to buy the glass and metals to get going all the way up to level 2.

If you play your cards right, it should be extremely hard to beat you to buying your lvl2 spell bullet catch. If any other player buys it, he just shoots himself in the foot.

I dont think any other magician has that overlap in resources between lvl1 and lvl2 spells, let alone inside his own spellbook. And has the ability to get all the resources for his lvl1 and 2 spell within the first turn of the game. Requiring just 1 market action of basics goods, which are all there at the start of the game.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Keeper of the Sacred Aardvark
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
To further clarify: you take the manager: +1 rope, +1 oil as starting equipment. Now you have 2 rope, 2 oil and you just need to buy the glass and metals to get going all the way up to level 2.

If you play your cards right, it should be extremely hard to beat you to buying your lvl2 spell bullet catch. It's a risky buy and the player buying it shoots himself in the foot.

I dont think any other magician has that overlap in resources between lvl1 and lvl2 spells. And has the ability to get all the resources for his lvl1 and 2 spell within the first turn of the game. Requiring just 1 market action of basics goods, which are all there at the start of the game.


except anyone can do that. There is nothing specific to the Mechiniker there. Tricks aren't specific to the magicians
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
The rules say you have to pick a trick from your Favorite trick category. I think its safe to assume, they intend that you pick a trick from your own school.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Désirée Greverud
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
Keeper of the Sacred Aardvark
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
The rules say you have to pick a trick from your Favorite trick category. I think its safe to assume, they intend that you pick a trick from your own school.

starting trick yes. but you can't do what you are proposing since you can't have 2 different stacks of the same equipment. starting equipment goes in the workshop. Manager equipment goes on the manager.
Besides, breath of Life -> Future Sight only requires a single level 1 and a single level 2 item more, and there are others, especially once you mix up the schools.

Sorry, I'm just not convinced you a)played correctly and/or b)are blaming the right mechanics or rules for the imbalance you perceive and/or c)don't know all the characters well enough to single out this one as unbalanced.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
In response:

shake You have to move stack of rope to the manager slot at some point, while you are preparing tricks.

shake Future Sight requires you to get a Red Component, which you have to order (1 action) and get (1 more action) or spend 2 actions to get a quickbuy. That's a full action extra cost. Also those trick rewards do not even compare to levitation and bullet catch.

Since you are convinced of your selfrighteousness, just play the game, do the combo as descripted below and report.

Mini guide:

The Mechaniker

SETUP
spell Levitation (1:2 yield ratio, +2 fame, +3 coins; 1 rope, 2 oil, 3 glass)
+1 rope
+Manager
+1 oil (placed on manager, netting you an effective 2 oil)

EARLY GOALS
TURN 1: get Assistant, get 3 glass and 3 metal, dark alley
TURN 2: Perform, get free apprentice, move rope to manager
TURN 3: Get spell Bulletcatch (2:3 yield ratio, +3 fame, +4 coins, 2 rope, 2 oil, 3 metal)

END GOALS
hire Engineer
spell Automaton (1:1 yield ratio, +7 fame, +7 coins, 3 mech wheels, 3 oil, 3 metal, achieve +4 fame for each lvl16 spell)



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael D
msg tools
Are you confusing the Mechaniker with the mechanical school of tricks?

Where does the special power of +1 action point for an apprentice once per round play a role?

I'm confused.

And accusing someone of self righteousness during a civil discussion... don't do that.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
Sorry, my bad. Got tilted. I had a similar discussion last year in the 'average end game scoring thread', and was accused there of rule mistakes/cheating, after posting that we finished two games with 190+ scores, (both with the Mechaniker.) We take great care in our game group to play a game correctly and if we have any doubt we always check for rule clarifications on BGG. If people can reach similar scores with non-mechanical characters then my point is void ofcourse.

In response: The spellcombo is available for all Mechanical magicians, but it's easier to pull off with the Mechaniker.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. Got tilted. I had a similar discussion last year in the 'average end game scoring thread', and was accused there of rule mistakes/cheating, after posting that we finished two games with 190+ scores, (both with the Mechaniker.) We take great care in our game group to play a game correctly and if we have any doubt we always check for rule clarifications on BGG. If people can reach similar scores with non-mechanical characters then my point is void ofcourse.

In response: The spellcombo is available for all Mechanical magicians, but it's easier to pull off with the Mechaniker.


Thanks for coming back with a different tone.

I don't play Trickerion all that often (unfortunately), but I will definitely keep my eye on this combo the next time.

May I ask what player counts you've played this combo with, and what your group's scores typically look like without this combo? (So I have some reference to compare my and my wife's typical scores to.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis Deschildre
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
Sorry, my bad. Got tilted. I had a similar discussion last year in the 'average end game scoring thread', and was accused there of rule mistakes/cheating, after posting that we finished two games with 190+ scores, (both with the Mechaniker.) We take great care in our game group to play a game correctly and if we have any doubt we always check for rule clarifications on BGG. If people can reach similar scores with non-mechanical characters then my point is void ofcourse.

In response: The spellcombo is available for all Mechanical magicians, but it's easier to pull off with the Mechaniker.


Also, did you play with the Magician Powers? I heard that one pushes your score even further.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
- We played the game with all options.
- We played every game with 3 players.
- I think we averaged an 140-150 endgame score. Sometimes even up to 170, with other mages. The Mechaniker scored 190+ and had an easier time.

Mechaniker feels to me like the Darklings from Terra Mystica. We consider those to be OP as well, but we use the Bidding Variant (optional rules from the expansion) to offset that advantage.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Palframan
United States
Jupiter
Florida
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
190?!? Are you playing with the magicians power deck? What round do you usually get your tier 3 tricks spooled up and performed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
Yes, we play with magician powers. You should have the automaton bought and performed on turn 5. You should get the engineer on turn 4.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Palframan
United States
Jupiter
Florida
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does the magicians power cards speed up the game? We've never been able to get tier 3 tricks before the 6th or 7th round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wjw01 wrote:
Yes, we play with magician powers. You should have the automaton bought and performed on turn 5. You should get the engineer on turn 4.


mpalframan wrote:
Does the magicians power cards speed up the game? We've never been able to get tier 3 tricks before the 6th or 7th round.


Heh… I think I suck at this game… our scores are typically below 100… soblue
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem-Jan Wellens
msg tools
Lower scores are not that weird. The point scoring in this game is extremely snowbally. As soon as you manage to get lvl2 spells, the wages for the extra assistants are manageable, allowing you more actions. More actions means more points, etc... So if you focus on getting hyperefficient starts, your endgamescore will grow exponentially.

I assume the Magicians Powers speed up the games, yes. We never played without them, so I am no expert. You do get more shards at the start of the game.



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.