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Subject: Trick-taking? rss

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Martin G
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What's with all the games lately saying they're trick-taking when they're not? Plums, Honshū and now this.

I learned Spires last night and I really enjoyed it, but the mechanical components are:

1. Simultaneous action selection (the choice of which market to visit)

2. Blind bidding (to resolve conflicts)

3. Set collection (and avoidance)

Just because the blind bidding has a 'matching suit beats non-matching suit' rule doesn't make it trick-taking, which requires the cards to be played sequentially.

</pedant>

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This is a tough, and losing, battle friend.
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Matt Hulgan
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qwertymartin wrote:
What's with all the games lately saying they're trick-taking when they're not? Plums, Honshū and now this.


I'm super-duper with you on this conundrum. I like trick taking games. I like climbing games. I like blind bidding games. I also like knowing which one I'm dealing with when I check out a new game. They really aren't hard to distinguish from one another though.

Apparently, even in our insular hobby, trick-taking can be applied to any game where you play the best thing so you get a thing.

*sigh* It's a loosing battle indeed.
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TC Petty III
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Hey don't ask me. I agree with you.
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Ting Pong IP
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I agree with you too. I don’t think this is a game with trick-taking mechanic.
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Martin G
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Well I've submitted a correction (remove Trick-taking, add Simultaneous action selection). We'll see what happens!
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Ting Pong IP
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I had a similar discussion for another game too: Radiant.

I don’t think that game has trick taking either.
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Starsunsky wrote:
I had a similar discussion for another game too: Radiant.

I don’t think that game has truck taking either.


If you're looking for truck taking, Zooloretto: TDG is pretty good.
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Bryan Thunkd
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qwertymartin wrote:
2. Blind bidding (to resolve conflicts)
Where everyone involved plays cards to a common pool and the highest in-suit card takes the trick.
 
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Martin G
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Thunkd wrote:
qwertymartin wrote:
2. Blind bidding (to resolve conflicts)
Where everyone involved plays cards to a common pool and the highest in-suit card takes the trick.


Yes, that's the only element borrowed from trick taking. But the suit to follow isn't determined by the lead because everything is simultaneous.
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Martin G
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qwertymartin wrote:
Well I've submitted a correction (remove Trick-taking, add Simultaneous action selection). We'll see what happens!


Victory!
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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qwertymartin wrote:
doesn't make it trick-taking, which requires the cards to be played sequentially.
While this is a standard feature of most trick-taking games, I'm not sure that this is actually a requirement.

I can easily imagine a game where the leader publicly announces a suit and then players simultaneously choose a card to play. If the goal is to take a certain number of tricks then I'd still consider this a trick taking game... as the goal is to "take tricks" and thus is a "trick-taking" game. Especially if other typical rules of trick taking games are used, like "must follow suit", "highest card in suit wins", etc.

Sure, it would have a non-standard mechanism, but I think it would share more similarities to trick-taking games than to blind-bidding games.
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Martin G
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As with all these mechanical debates, there aren't clear-cut definitions and games often occupy the grey areas.

But per BGG's own definition: "Each player plays in turn order one card".

And traditional card games bible Pagat has: "A trick consists of each player in turn playing one card face up to the table"

Anyway, I think Spires is further away than your example, since there is plenty of action in the game other than the 'trick-taking' part.
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Bryan Thunkd
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qwertymartin wrote:
As with all these mechanical debates, there aren't clear-cut definitions and games often occupy the grey areas.
Agreed.

qwertymartin wrote:
But per BGG's own definition: "Each player plays in turn order one card".

And traditional card games bible Pagat has: "A trick consists of each player in turn playing one card face up to the table"
I think those definitions encapsulate the commonly understood idea of trick-taking. They haven't been challenged because there haven't been games that have pushed that particular restriction. As soon as a game comes out about trick taking that uses simlutaneous play, it would force people to reconsider that definition.

qwertymartin wrote:
Anywyay, I think Spires is further away than your example, since there is plenty of action in the game other than the 'trick-taking' part.
I agree with you. I would consider Spires to be a game that had a tick-taking element in it rather than a trick-taking game.

But I think that's a better argument than claiming that trick-taking games must require sequential play... as I think that's merely a restriction that hasn't been challenged yet. If you look at the trick taking genre there are many different variants where some standard feature of trick-taking games has been changed or omitted. Games where you don't have to follow suit. Or the person with the highest card doesn't win the trick. Etc.
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Tom P
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I spend time every now and again looking at the latest entries to the trick-taking mechanism on BGG, and about half of them turn out to be not trick taking games at all, but just including some whisper of a trick-taking element. I feel these are used a bit like hashtags to try and get the game as wide an audience as possible, but it's a little annoying.
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