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Subject: So..should i get Salsa? rss

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Adelin Dumitru
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I find Concordia a very elegant game. I like the base set very much, it's one of my favorite Euros and one of my favorite games of all time. That being said, I'm slightly tempted by Salsa. I genuinely dislike the box cover, but the content seems interesting enough to warrant a purchase.

However, I have a few specific questions:

1. I've heard that the Hispania map is very good for 2 players. As this is how I play 99% of games, is this accurate?

2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?

3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?

4. Overall, does the expansion increase or decrease playtime?

Thanks in advance!
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Jack Francisco
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In a word, yes.
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Jérôme
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To make choices even harder, a new expansion is on its way and it's looking very interesting, with another map suitable for two players...

I'm in the same boat as you Adelin, so I'm curious for the replies.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Oh, and another important question: how does Salsa affect the playtime? I find that our games of Concordia are too short (45 minutes?), and if Salsa decreased this any further it might not be worth it.
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Jasenko Pasic
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
I find Concordia a very elegant game. I like the base set very much, it's one of my favorite Euros and one of my favorite games of all time. That being said, I'm slightly tempted by Salsa. I genuinely dislike the box cover, but the content seems interesting enough to warrant a purchase.

However, I have a few specific questions:

1. I've heard that the Hispania map is very good for 2 players. As this is how I play 99% of games, is this accurate?

2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?

3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?

Thanks in advance!

I bought Salsa, and have never regretted it. I play 2 players on Britania map though.
I played forum once, it was great, but I love Concordia vanilla + salt.
Also...
First time we played with salt, all of us went for it, but more we played, we ignored it more. It is tempting to build there, but, it does not decrease any others resources values.
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M.C.Crispy
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
I find Concordia a very elegant game. I like the base set very much, it's one of my favorite Euros and one of my favorite games of all time. That being said, I'm slightly tempted by Salsa. I genuinely dislike the box cover, but the content seems interesting enough to warrant a purchase.
I get it when people are put off purchasing a game by the box art. But the box art on an expansion to "one of [your] favourite games" is surely irrelevant? Be assured, that - like in Concordia - it has zero impact on the gameplay

Quote:
However, I have a few specific questions:

1. I've heard that the Hispania map is very good for 2 players. As this is how I play 99% of games, is this accurate?
No idea, I don't play Concordia (well, any game really) as a 2-P. Though I played Corsica 2-P when a family emergency called a player away while we were committed to and already setting up on the Britannia map for a 3-P. My rule of thumb is that a board with <25 cities will be an excellent 2-P board (currently Britannia and Corsica).

Quote:
2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?
Yes, it changes the game. No, it doesn't increase the importance of other resources (because it's expensive to build a Salt House). What it does do is give a little flexibility whenever a Good is involved and it can help with Minerva cards (especially on those occasions when you just can't reach the final City for your Minerva).

Quote:
3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?
Well, it's modular, so you can ignore it if you don't like it (I do like it). The thing that Forum does is to put some extra pressure on the decision to Tribune. Sometimes it puts a lot of pressure on that decision - I become intensely aware of how many cards my opponents have played and what their most likely Forum tile would be (it's similar to the tension of trying to manage the Personality cards). Forum can also subtlety modify people's "standard openings" (we all have 'em, right?) and the early game, which makes the game more variable (i.e. increases "replayability")

Overall, I never play without at least one element from Salsa (board, Salsa or Forum) unless I'm teaching the game. I don't always use both Salsa and Forum, but I prefer to do so.
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Ryan Kiesshauer
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I love it. It might add a little time, but certainly wouldn't make it shorter since there are more decisions to make. I think the forum and salt both add a ton of fun without compromising the base or skewing how you can play it. I prefer to play with Salsa almost always right now -- but it's still fairly new to me.
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Bryan Thunkd
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?
Yes, it is a game changer. Having flexibility and being able to transmute salt into whatever you need at will is very awesome. No, it doesn't really decrease the importance of getting other resources. It's expensive to build, so getting many of them can be difficult. And if you're going for specialist cards you'll still want to get those trading posts as well. And you'll want to be in other goods types for the brown banner scoring.

AdelinDumitru wrote:
3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?
I like the forum a lot. Some of the powers aren't as cool as others, so the random draw at the beginning can be a bit lucky, but that's not so bad even if you don't get the best one. It is not a cumbersome addition at all and goes a long way to keeping things fresh.

AdelinDumitru wrote:
4. Overall, does the expansion increase or decrease playtime?
Other than additional teach time, I haven't noticed it changing the playtime much.
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Silver Fang
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I would add....

If you buy the Salsa expansion,

KEEP THE BOX!!!

this way you will have one box for the bits and one box for the five boards that now exist, should you choose to get them all.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Silver Fang wrote:
I would add....

If you buy the Salsa expansion,

KEEP THE BOX!!!

this way you will have one box for the bits and one box for the five boards that now exist, should you choose to get them all.


I keep all expansion boxes....

and all punched punchboards...

i even keep the plastic shi**y boxes in which Battlelore expansions come
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Andrea Bampi
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Thunkd wrote:
I like the forum a lot. Some of the powers aren't as cool as others, so the random draw at the beginning can be a bit lucky, but that's not so bad even if you don't get the best one.


I personally dislike the luck factor added by the initial Forum (patrician) tile random assignment. I strongly recommend the "expert rule" - the auction variant.

Anyway, the expansion is surely interesting for expert players, since it definitely increases replayability. I'd strongly recommend to avoid it with newbies, of course.
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john newman
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senorcoo wrote:
In a word, yes.


This.
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Barry Churchill
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
I find Concordia a very elegant game. I like the base set very much, it's one of my favorite Euros and one of my favorite games of all time. That being said, I'm slightly tempted by Salsa. I genuinely dislike the box cover, but the content seems interesting enough to warrant a purchase.

However, I have a few specific questions:

1. I've heard that the Hispania map is very good for 2 players. As this is how I play 99% of games, is this accurate?

2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?

3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?

4. Overall, does the expansion increase or decrease playtime?

Thanks in advance!


My wife and I bought the Corsica map for a tighter two player but the truth is it doesn't really matter about doubling up in a two player game as it doesn't cost that much more.

We found the Corsica map a little dull as didn't really feel like we were adventuring around if that makes sense and have since gone back to the Hispania map which is lovely IMO.

You get used to salt pretty quickly and while it's handy to have you don't really notice it after a while and it blends into the game seamlessly

Haven't got round to the forum cards yet as enjoying vanilla so much

If Concordia is one of your favourite Euros then salsa is a no-brainer and you won't regret having it. We always play with salt and it adds a nice adition to the game.
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Dirk Meijlof
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
Silver Fang wrote:
I would add....

If you buy the Salsa expansion,

KEEP THE BOX!!!

this way you will have one box for the bits and one box for the five boards that now exist, should you choose to get them all.


I keep all expansion boxes....

and all punched punchboards...

i even keep the plastic shi**y boxes in which Battlelore expansions come

The other expansions, that only consist of a boad, don't have their own box.

After purchasing the Brittania or Corsica expansion you will just have to buy the Salsa expansion too .
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steven smolders
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1 dunno the smaller the map the better it will be for 2 players

2 Salt is no game changer but it comes in handy. You can replace any good with salt if building but not for trading

3 Forum is Always usefull and gives you either one time uses or longterm benefits. plus it makes picking up your discard pile at the right time even more rewarding

4 The expansion doesn't make the game any longer
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David Taranto
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Salt is amazing. Hispania is my favorite 2p map to date because it is like a tighter Imperium map. Forum for me is optional - I prefer a cleaner more streamlined game.

Newer expansion maps are far more interesting conceptually, though. Egypt/Crete looks like it'll be a REAL winner.
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Bryan Thunkd
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RickNash wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
I like the forum a lot. Some of the powers aren't as cool as others, so the random draw at the beginning can be a bit lucky, but that's not so bad even if you don't get the best one.


I personally dislike the luck factor added by the initial Forum (patrician) tile random assignment. I strongly recommend the "expert rule" - the auction variant.
I tend to play with people who have played less frequently than myself. I don't think it makes sense trying to have newer players auction off things as they don't have as good an idea what things are worth. I'll either end up getting something good for cheap or making them overpay. If I get a less good thing randomly, I just consider it a "luck of the draw handicap".

If I was playing with the same people consistently and they all had experience with the game, I'd love to try the auction variant.
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Barry Churchill
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Also if you play 99% two player and want an elegant Euro then check out

Castles of Burgundy.

Thinky but not too thinky
Plays brilliantly two players (much better than Concordia does)
Has a bit of everything, worker placement, set collection, building, dice, take that (not too much take that),
Plays in an hour or less
Tons of replayability
Wifes/girlfriends seem to like it
Cheap

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Andrea Bampi
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Thunkd wrote:
RickNash wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
I like the forum a lot. Some of the powers aren't as cool as others, so the random draw at the beginning can be a bit lucky, but that's not so bad even if you don't get the best one.


I personally dislike the luck factor added by the initial Forum (patrician) tile random assignment. I strongly recommend the "expert rule" - the auction variant.
I tend to play with people who have played less frequently than myself. I don't think it makes sense trying to have newer players auction off things as they don't have as good an idea what things are worth. I'll either end up getting something good for cheap or making them overpay. If I get a less good thing randomly, I just consider it a "luck of the draw handicap".


Ok, but what if you get a VERY good tile instead? cool
I wouldn't use the Forum tiles at all when playing unexperienced players. That's why I suggested the auction variant
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Bryan Thunkd
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RickNash wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
RickNash wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
I like the forum a lot. Some of the powers aren't as cool as others, so the random draw at the beginning can be a bit lucky, but that's not so bad even if you don't get the best one.


I personally dislike the luck factor added by the initial Forum (patrician) tile random assignment. I strongly recommend the "expert rule" - the auction variant.
I tend to play with people who have played less frequently than myself. I don't think it makes sense trying to have newer players auction off things as they don't have as good an idea what things are worth. I'll either end up getting something good for cheap or making them overpay. If I get a less good thing randomly, I just consider it a "luck of the draw handicap".


Ok, but what if you get a VERY good tile instead?
Then I have nothing to complain about. Basically, getting screwed by the luck of the draw isn't anything I need to worry about until I'm sitting at the table with experienced players who have played the game as often as I have. If I end up playing in that scenario then the auction variant would be fun to try.

RickNash wrote:
I wouldn't use the Forum tiles at all when playing unexperienced players.
The Forum tiles add something interesting, without adding a lot of extra time or thought to the game. It's fairly easy for players to pick between the two tiles they're randomly given. Trying to get them to value a bunch of tiles for an auction would be a lot more challenging. The randomness of the tile draw usually isn't game changing. I've gotten the short end of that stick a number of times, but that's fine. If I really thought it was a concern I'd play without them or use the auction. I don't think it's that big of a deal and I'm okay with a little bit of random.
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M.C.Crispy
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Thunkd wrote:
[The Forum tiles add something interesting, without adding a lot of extra time or thought to the game.
Of course "a lot" isn't a quantifiable amount, so it's moot whether they add "a lot". However, in my games, I find that the overhead of tracking the likelihood that my opponent will Tribune and grab my target before I do, as well as figuring out which Forum tile I want and how best to use it and whether it's worth an "early" Tribune to grab it, is more of a strategic overhead than I want to load on a new player who is still struggling with the significance of the scoring system and trying to understand that it's not a game about building Houses.
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mccrispy wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
[The Forum tiles add something interesting, without adding a lot of extra time or thought to the game.
Of course "a lot" isn't a quantifiable amount, so it's moot whether they add "a lot". However, in my games, I find that the overhead of tracking the likelihood that my opponent will Tribune and grab my target before I do, as well as figuring out which Forum tile I want and how best to use it and whether it's worth an "early" Tribune to grab it, is more of a strategic overhead than I want to load on a new player who is still struggling with the significance of the scoring system and trying to understand that it's not a game about building Houses.


That's exactly what I meant when suggesting to keep the Forum tiles out of the game with newbies. Concordia gives so much to think about without the need to add even more options.
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Quote:
1. I've heard that the Hispania map is very good for 2 players. As this is how I play 99% of games, is this accurate?

2. Is Salt a game-changer? Does it decrease the importance of getting other resources?

3. How is the Forum? Do you find it fun? Do you find that it adds replayability or is it a cumbersome addition?

4. Overall, does the expansion increase or decrease playtime?


1 - Hispania map has a similar feel to the Italy map, slightly smaller and two less regions so Saturn cards slightly less lucrative.

2 - Salt as a wild card allows for significantly more flexibility in game play, where looking at an opponent's board, you could deduce one or two combination options when they were about to play Senator, now it can be 3 or 4. This is good and bad as having salt makes it harder to be blocked, but can also make it harder to plan.

3 - The forum powers are exciting to play but the forum tile choice will also push you in to a particular strategy if you are to maximize the tile's utility. Not having forum tiles actually has better strategy flexibility.

4 - No change in time unless you're very loopy AP prone.

My general comment is that the expansion does make the game feel fresh again if you've played it a lot already, but doesn't add any remarkable improvement to the game. The game will still revolve around always planning for your next architect/senator actions and your opponent's next architect/senator actions.

The one feature I don't like very much is that the salt cities count towards Minerva points is a little broken for the Weaver since you now have a single card potentially worth 30-40 points. In the original game, the Brick maxed out at 24 points on the largest map.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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mccrispy wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
[The Forum tiles add something interesting, without adding a lot of extra time or thought to the game.
Of course "a lot" isn't a quantifiable amount, so it's moot whether they add "a lot". However, in my games, I find that the overhead of tracking the likelihood that my opponent will Tribune and grab my target before I do, as well as figuring out which Forum tile I want and how best to use it and whether it's worth an "early" Tribune to grab it, is more of a strategic overhead than I want to load on a new player who is still struggling with the significance of the scoring system and trying to understand that it's not a game about building Houses.
The players I've played with haven't had any problem with that. Usually if there's a good tile out, it's one of the new ones (as any cheaper good ones have already gotten taken earlier) and the person who tribuned earliest the last time is going to get it before anyone else can. I've not known many people to delay tribuning when they have a good forum tile they qualify for.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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RickNash wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
[The Forum tiles add something interesting, without adding a lot of extra time or thought to the game.
Of course "a lot" isn't a quantifiable amount, so it's moot whether they add "a lot". However, in my games, I find that the overhead of tracking the likelihood that my opponent will Tribune and grab my target before I do, as well as figuring out which Forum tile I want and how best to use it and whether it's worth an "early" Tribune to grab it, is more of a strategic overhead than I want to load on a new player who is still struggling with the significance of the scoring system and trying to understand that it's not a game about building Houses.


That's exactly what I meant when suggesting to keep the Forum tiles out of the game with newbies. Concordia gives so much to think about without the need to add even more options.
I'm assuming that means that we're in agreement then.
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