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Subject: All LAT's are units. Right? rss

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William Jason Raynovich
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I think that is the case as I have read up on units. I ask because I have two Paralyzed US Teams on the Primary Objective on the 10th turn of WW2: Mission 2. There are no Enemy Forces on the card nor on the board. I also have secured the 2nd objective, and the Attack Position. Also, I have Cleared and Occupied all of the B and C rows.

Have I completed the mission? Or do I have to go through 10 turns of checking to see if there is a counter attack?
 
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John Gorski
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I would not think Paralyzed Teams (nor Litter Teams, for that matter) could actually secure a location. I think the "Secured" definition should be revised to read "Friendly occupied by a Good Order Unit." That's how I play, anyway.
 
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William Jason Raynovich
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Gorski wrote:
I would not think Paralyzed Teams (nor Litter Teams, for that matter) could actually secure a location. I think the "Secured" definition should be revised to read "Friendly occupied by a Good Order Unit." That's how I play, anyway.


That is what I was thinking, but could not find that defined in the rules.
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Ricky Gray
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An LAT is a unit per 1.2.3F.

Per the glossary entry in 1.2.6:
Occupied, Unoccupied, Cleared, and Secured Cards: A Terrain card is Occupied if there is at least one unit on the card. Depending on the unit(s) present, the card can be friendly-occupied, enemy-occupied, or jointly-occupied (i.e., with units from both sides present). A Terrain card is Unoccupied if there is no enemy unit or Potential Contact marker on the card. A Cleared card is an unoccupied card that previously had a Potential Contact marker and is being counted for the purpose of achieving a mission. A Secured card is a card that is both friendly-occupied and cleared. Ignore any enemy casualties or VOF markers on a card when determining if the card is unoccupied or cleared.

Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify.

Best,
Ricky
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William Jason Raynovich
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Preacher wrote:
An LAT is a unit per 1.2.3F.

Per the glossary entry in 1.2.6:
Occupied, Unoccupied, Cleared, and Secured Cards: A Terrain card is Occupied if there is at least one unit on the card. Depending on the unit(s) present, the card can be friendly-occupied, enemy-occupied, or jointly-occupied (i.e., with units from both sides present). A Terrain card is Unoccupied if there is no enemy unit or Potential Contact marker on the card. A Cleared card is an unoccupied card that previously had a Potential Contact marker and is being counted for the purpose of achieving a mission. A Secured card is a card that is both friendly-occupied and cleared. Ignore any enemy casualties or VOF markers on a card when determining if the card is unoccupied or cleared.

Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify.

Best,
Ricky


So, I was right, that it did count. I am getting better at this!

Now, I have a thematic question for anyone who could field this kind of question:

Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.


 
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.


I cannot personally, since I have no military background. Ben does, however, and I will be happy to pass this on to him. Stay tuned.

Best.
Ricky
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Jerry Tresman
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raynovich wrote:
Preacher wrote:
An LAT is a unit per 1.2.3F.

Per the glossary entry in 1.2.6:
Occupied, Unoccupied, Cleared, and Secured Cards: A Terrain card is Occupied if there is at least one unit on the card. Depending on the unit(s) present, the card can be friendly-occupied, enemy-occupied, or jointly-occupied (i.e., with units from both sides present). A Terrain card is Unoccupied if there is no enemy unit or Potential Contact marker on the card. A Cleared card is an unoccupied card that previously had a Potential Contact marker and is being counted for the purpose of achieving a mission. A Secured card is a card that is both friendly-occupied and cleared. Ignore any enemy casualties or VOF markers on a card when determining if the card is unoccupied or cleared.

Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify.

Best,
Ricky


So, I was right, that it did count. I am getting better at this!

Now, I have a thematic question for anyone who could field this kind of question:

Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.




Not combat effective but otherwise capable of recovery , casualties would be not effective and not capable of recovery e.g wounded.

Not combat effective covers a multitude of options from no weapon/ammo to no will to fight. This would include the unit taking casualties meaning those left do not represent an effective force. It could also include units that have lost their command e.g. squad leader and so are just sitting tight , until a commander appoints a new team leade , rallies them, "private your acting corporal get these men organised'. The bestthey may be capable of is a litter team to carry casualties , until they can scratch together some extra men and weapons.
FoF models this well with reconstitution of squads from LATs.


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John Gorski
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Starman54 wrote:
raynovich wrote:
Preacher wrote:
An LAT is a unit per 1.2.3F.

Per the glossary entry in 1.2.6:
Occupied, Unoccupied, Cleared, and Secured Cards: A Terrain card is Occupied if there is at least one unit on the card. Depending on the unit(s) present, the card can be friendly-occupied, enemy-occupied, or jointly-occupied (i.e., with units from both sides present). A Terrain card is Unoccupied if there is no enemy unit or Potential Contact marker on the card. A Cleared card is an unoccupied card that previously had a Potential Contact marker and is being counted for the purpose of achieving a mission. A Secured card is a card that is both friendly-occupied and cleared. Ignore any enemy casualties or VOF markers on a card when determining if the card is unoccupied or cleared.

Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify.

Best,
Ricky


So, I was right, that it did count. I am getting better at this!

Now, I have a thematic question for anyone who could field this kind of question:

Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.




Not combat effective but otherwise capable of recovery , casualties would be not effective and not capable of recovery e.g wounded.

Not combat effective covers a multitude of options from no weapon/ammo to no will to fight. This would include the unit taking casualties meaning those left do not represent an effective force. It could also include units that have lost their command e.g. squad leader and so are just sitting tight , until a commander appoints a new team leade , rallies them, "private your acting corporal get these men organised'. The bestthey may be capable of is a litter team to carry casualties , until they can scratch together some extra men and weapons.
FoF models this well with reconstitution of squads from LATs.




Thus, my reasoning for Paralyzed or Litter Teams being able to secure cards.

I agree, Ricky, that by definition a Paralyzed or Litter Team is a Unit. However, being "not combat effective", as stated above, indicates they incapable of doing anything. Also, 3.5 states that "Paralyzed or Litter Teams are captured if they are on a card with enemy Good Order Units, Assault Teams, or Fire Teams, and there are no other friendly units on the card". To my mind, that is not a secure card. Secured would indicate possession, something the enemy would have to fight to regain control of.

RAW notwithstanding, in my games a card will be secured by Good Order Units.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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I think you mean you are going for Combat Units as Good Order doesn't include LATs.

Good Order Unit: This is any Infantry unit that is not a Limited Action Team and not Pinned.

Limited Action Teams (LATs) These units are one Step units labeled as Assault, Fire, Litter, or Paralyzed Teams.

Combat Units: Combat units include any Good Order units, Assault and Fire Teams, Vehicles, and any other unit with a printed VOF value.
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William Jason Raynovich
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Gorski wrote:
Starman54 wrote:
raynovich wrote:
Preacher wrote:
An LAT is a unit per 1.2.3F.

Per the glossary entry in 1.2.6:
Occupied, Unoccupied, Cleared, and Secured Cards: A Terrain card is Occupied if there is at least one unit on the card. Depending on the unit(s) present, the card can be friendly-occupied, enemy-occupied, or jointly-occupied (i.e., with units from both sides present). A Terrain card is Unoccupied if there is no enemy unit or Potential Contact marker on the card. A Cleared card is an unoccupied card that previously had a Potential Contact marker and is being counted for the purpose of achieving a mission. A Secured card is a card that is both friendly-occupied and cleared. Ignore any enemy casualties or VOF markers on a card when determining if the card is unoccupied or cleared.

Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify.

Best,
Ricky


So, I was right, that it did count. I am getting better at this!

Now, I have a thematic question for anyone who could field this kind of question:

Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.




Not combat effective but otherwise capable of recovery , casualties would be not effective and not capable of recovery e.g wounded.

Not combat effective covers a multitude of options from no weapon/ammo to no will to fight. This would include the unit taking casualties meaning those left do not represent an effective force. It could also include units that have lost their command e.g. squad leader and so are just sitting tight , until a commander appoints a new team leade , rallies them, "private your acting corporal get these men organised'. The bestthey may be capable of is a litter team to carry casualties , until they can scratch together some extra men and weapons.
FoF models this well with reconstitution of squads from LATs.




Thus, my reasoning for Paralyzed or Litter Teams being able to secure cards.

I agree, Ricky, that by definition a Paralyzed or Litter Team is a Unit. However, being "not combat effective", as stated above, indicates they incapable of doing anything. Also, 3.5 states that "Paralyzed or Litter Teams are captured if they are on a card with enemy Good Order Units, Assault Teams, or Fire Teams, and there are no other friendly units on the card". To my mind, that is not a secure card. Secured would indicate possession, something the enemy would have to fight to regain control of.

RAW notwithstanding, in my games a card will be secured by Good Order Units.


Ah, the beauty of solo gaming.

I think of the role-playing aspect of the game and that in my situation, there were no other enemy units on the board and in fact ALL cards were cleared. It would have seem against the spirit of the role-playing that I would not have completed the mission.

Now, if there were units one card to the "north" which were firing on my Paralyzed units, I might not have considered that to be secured, personally. That would have been my personal ruling, but NOW I am venturing into Variant Folder.

Please disregard.
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John Gorski
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Starman54 wrote:
I think you mean you are going for Combat Units as Good Order doesn't include LATs.

Good Order Unit: This is any Infantry unit that is not a Limited Action Team and not Pinned.

Limited Action Teams (LATs) These units are one Step units labeled as Assault, Fire, Litter, or Paralyzed Teams.

Combat Units: Combat units include any Good Order units, Assault and Fire Teams, Vehicles, and any other unit with a printed VOF value.


Yes, That's what I meant.
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Jerry Tresman
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raynovich wrote:
I think that is the case as I have read up on units. I ask because I have two Paralyzed US Teams on the Primary Objective on the 10th turn of WW2: Mission 2. There are no Enemy Forces on the card nor on the board. I also have secured the 2nd objective, and the Attack Position. Also, I have Cleared and Occupied all of the B and C rows.

Have I completed the mission? Or do I have to go through 10 turns of checking to see if there is a counter attack?

Edit
No as this was added at version 2 of the rules , I recalled a CSW discussion , so play to Turn 10.

"Determine whether a card is cleared at the end of a mission. You do not get points for a card that is cleared during a mission but then reoccupied by the enemy before the mission is over, and you cannot get double points for clearing a card twice. "


Yes, complete if you have just completed the Clean up Phase.

"You must successfully complete a mission before moving on to the next mission in the campaign. The Mission Instructions will indicate what constitutes the successful completion of a mission and the number of times the mission may be attempted."

Mission 2.

Occupy and clear of enemy forces the Primary and Secondary Objectives and clear Rows 1 through 4 of any enemy forces.


Considering the mission goals are to clear the first 4 rows then having no enemy would increase the morale and effectiveness of those LATs significantly.

"Since an LAT is a unit, and Occupying, Securing, Clearing, etc. requires a unit, then yes, LATs qualify"

Ricky , please add to Glossary for Cleared, Secured... entry , only determined at end of the mission.

Also it may need to be made clear that the turn count forms part of the successful completion of a mission.
 
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Ricky Gray
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Let me think of how to word this, Jerry.

And to be clear, units can secure a card, but as Jerry states, a card is not necessarily permanently secured. It can be retaken (and if you are holding it only with paralyzed or litter teams, for instance, it likely won't stayed secured for long).

Best,
Ricky
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Bryan Felsher
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Am I correct that a card can still be considered cleared and/or secured even if there is still an Enemy VOF on it?

 
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Jerry Tresman
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truep wrote:
Am I correct that a card can still be considered cleared and/or secured even if there is still an Enemy VOF on it?



Yes VoF and Casualties are ignored , but secured, cleared only counts at game end.
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Ricky Gray
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Quote:
Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.


Hey, William. Here is what Ben wrote back to me. In case you do not know, he is a combat veteran (which is why I deferred to him on this—oh, and he's the designer, of course :-)):

A paralyzed team is 2 to 3 soldiers huddled in whatever cover they can find. They are not using their weapons, they have "checked out." They may be lightly injured or stunned, but do not include serious casualties (that is what a casualty marker represents). A paralyzed team may be rallied, so may return to action if properly led. As to securing a card, it can as a "last man standing" proposition, so not necessarily a well-secured card. Modern combat can be terrifying and confusing. Close terrain makes it worse. To the frontline soldiers there are not clear lines, everyone seeks cover so the battlefield can appear empty. Only the snap of bullets and random explosions serve to remind the soldier that it is most certainly not empty.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Ricky
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William Jason Raynovich
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Preacher wrote:
Quote:
Can you describe to me what a Paralyzed Team might "look" like? I can imagine a few different answers, including frightened beyond effectiveness, wounded, severely wounded, dead, or something else.


Hey, William. Here is what Ben wrote back to me. In case you do not know, he is a combat veteran (which is why I deferred to him on this—oh, and he's the designer, of course :-)):

A paralyzed team is 2 to 3 soldiers huddled in whatever cover they can find. They are not using their weapons, they have "checked out." They may be lightly injured or stunned, but do not include serious casualties (that is what a casualty marker represents). A paralyzed team may be rallied, so may return to action if properly led. As to securing a card, it can as a "last man standing" proposition, so not necessarily a well-secured card. Modern combat can be terrifying and confusing. Close terrain makes it worse. To the frontline soldiers there are not clear lines, everyone seeks cover so the battlefield can appear empty. Only the snap of bullets and random explosions serve to remind the soldier that it is most certainly not empty.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Ricky


Thank you. Yes, I do know that Ben Hull is a veteran himself, which is why knew he could answer the question. This provides the setting very well got me.

I am inclined to argue that a Paralyzed/Litter Team with a VoF marker on it has not really secured the card, unless there is something about the 10 turns that "burns out" the men on both sides. Something to the effect that the battle just peters out?

Again, since this is a solo game, one can play it how one wants. Understanding the simulation provides stronger, more accurate decision making.
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