Mike Stiles
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So Kim Jong Un is taunting the hell out of Trump after the most recent round of sanctions.

I presume Kim is just blustring, but he just called the maniac in chief a "dotard". God help us all if Trump figures out what that means.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/09...


Edit: What's amazing is that NK clearly perceives Trumps bluster as weakness rather than as strength. It's like his whole life is a lie.
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Blue Mountain
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Dotard - great word! I'll have to start using it.

Thank you North Korea.
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windsagio wrote:
It's like his whole life is a lie.

Whose? Trump's or Kim's?

Seriously, one has to wonder how much more rope the Chinese will allow Kim before he suffers some sort of "accident" or mysterious "health" crisis. There are undoubtedly hundreds of North Koreans who'd be happy to put a bullet in the back of Kim's head if they were quietly assured that it wouldn't displease China.

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Matt Brown
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It says a lot when Kim Jong Un looks like the better one.
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won't someone please teach young Kim to call Donald a 'cuck'! whistle

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Walt
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Wild and crazy theory:

The Chinese are tolerating this because they want to see how we would shoot down an ICBM so they can defeat our defenses. While China has to publically tut-tut Kim, they want him to keep jerking our chain so we'll start shooting down NK missiles. Of course, no rational President would fall for this....
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The play's the thing ...
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Going thirty-eight, Dan, chill the f*** out. Mow your damn lawn and sit the hell down.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Wild and crazy theory:
X
The Chinese are tolerating this because they want to see how we would shoot down an ICBM so they can defeat our defenses. While China has to publically tut-tut Kim, they want him to keep jerking our chain so we'll start shooting down NK missiles. Of course, no rational President would fall for this....


Further to your theory, it probably helps China in its many negotiations with regional partners. NK is unpredictable but we (China) have the best chance of controlling him. Or statements to that effect...
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Blue Mountain
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Wild and crazy theory:

The Chinese are tolerating this because they want to see how we would shoot down an ICBM so they can defeat our defenses. While China has to publically tut-tut Kim, they want him to keep jerking our chain so we'll start shooting down NK missiles. Of course, no rational President would fall for this....
possible.

My mate was in the military of a country bordering Russia. He said Russian fighters would often stray into their airspace just to record the reaction of his country's military technology.

So they set up fake radar responses and lots of other stuff to mislead them.
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Vic Lineal
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Ugh. This is awful.

I don't think NK will take a unilateral step that they think will trigger a military reaction, but as the rhetoric increases, the tensions mean that something going bad and snapping increase.

Months ago some European leaders were testing the waters about a multilateral Iran-style nuclear deal with NK, seeing that the Iranian deal has worked very very well.

IMO, relaxing mutual distrust with NK is the only external intervention that can favour internal political reforms there. We've been in a fast and dangerous escalation in the opposite direction for months now.
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Vic Lineal
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SPIGuy wrote:
[Seriously, one has to wonder how much more rope the Chinese will allow Kim before he suffers some sort of "accident" or mysterious "health" crisis. There are undoubtedly hundreds of North Koreans who'd be happy to put a bullet in the back of Kim's head if they were quietly assured that it wouldn't displease China.


??

Do you think China favours the current North Korean leadership over internal opposition?
 
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Adrian Hague
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BlueMountain wrote:
Dotard - great word! I'll have to start using it.

Thank you North Korea.


"Gibbets and crows? Dotard!..." - Some Wizard Dude.
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viclineal wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:
[Seriously, one has to wonder how much more rope the Chinese will allow Kim before he suffers some sort of "accident" or mysterious "health" crisis. There are undoubtedly hundreds of North Koreans who'd be happy to put a bullet in the back of Kim's head if they were quietly assured that it wouldn't displease China.


??

Do you think China favours the current North Korean leadership over internal opposition?

I think China favors the status quo and has no use whatsoever for internal opposition. Nonetheless, this could be moving from a situation where North Korea is a Chinese cat's paw to one where North Korea is the tail wagging the dog. If Kim goes too far, he'll be quickly removed and replaced by someone who is just as beholden to China but less unbalanced.

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fightcitymayor
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Isn't it sad that we never get around to giving a damn about the North Korean people? The stuck-in-time society, the forced obeisance, the possibility of disappearing at a moment's notice, the economic deprivations along with the actual physical deprivations. People are always so consumed with "will that madman launch the nukes or won't he?!" that we barely remember there are 25 million people living under the yoke of a deadly & deranged tyrant every day.
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Daniel Kearns
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Isn't it sad that we never get around to giving a damn about the North Korean people? The stuck-in-time society, the forced obeisance, the possibility of disappearing at a moment's notice, the economic deprivations along with the actual physical deprivations. People are always so consumed with "will that madman launch the nukes or won't he?!" that we barely remember there are 25 million people living under the yoke of a deadly & deranged tyrant every day.


Actually, the US has 326 million.
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Wendell
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SPIGuy wrote:

I think China favors the status quo and has no use whatsoever for internal opposition. Nonetheless, this could be moving from a situation where North Korea is a Chinese cat's paw to one where North Korea is the tail wagging the dog. If Kim goes too far, he'll be quickly removed and replaced by someone who is just as beholden to China but less unbalanced.



We've been there for a while. China isn't blinkered, they know how sub-optimal the Kim regime is; in a perfect world for Beijing, the NK regime would probably NOT be pursuing nukes. But their primary desire is for stability in North Korea - and to prevent Korea from becoming a unified country containing American troops, so keeping NK stable is it.

Chinese-sponsored regime change in NK would be pretty self-defeating (I'm sure they've at least done planning on it, because planning is just one of those things major powers do routinely, even for things they never really think they will do). So like it or not, they're stuck with the Kim Dynasty for now, mostly for lack of better alternatives.
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Vic Lineal
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wifwendell wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:

I think China favors the status quo and has no use whatsoever for internal opposition. Nonetheless, this could be moving from a situation where North Korea is a Chinese cat's paw to one where North Korea is the tail wagging the dog. If Kim goes too far, he'll be quickly removed and replaced by someone who is just as beholden to China but less unbalanced.



We've been there for a while. China isn't blinkered, they know how sub-optimal the Kim regime is; in a perfect world for Beijing, the NK regime would probably NOT be pursuing nukes. But their primary desire is for stability in North Korea - and to prevent Korea from becoming a unified country containing American troops, so keeping NK stable is it.

Chinese-sponsored regime change in NK would be pretty self-defeating (I'm sure they've at least done planning on it, because planning is just one of those things major powers do routinely, even for things they never really think they will do). So like it or not, they're stuck with the Kim Dynasty for now, mostly for lack of better alternatives.


I think a regime change in Chinese terms would be the ideal scenario for China. If China could be sure that their concerns about North Korea wouldn't materialise, they'd welcome a better alternative (even a different political direction inside the current regime). Sustaining North Korea as it is also has political and diplomatic costs for China.

In turn, that's a strong motivation for Kim Jong Un to make sure there isn't any internal alternative, and that any regime change would bring instability and unpredictability. "It's me or chaos" is the best card he can play towards China.
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J.D. Hall
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matthean wrote:
It says a lot when Kim Jong Un looks like the better one.

Really? Certainly Mistah Trump is a mindless blowhard, but I haven't seen the People's Education Centers or the Re-Education Seminars that are part of the burden the North Korean people bear. And in the US, people ar too fat. In NK, people are starving.

But yeah, you're right -- Kim is so much better.

Inanity ensues...
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Bill Cook
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WW1 started when an archduke was assassinated
WW2 started when Germany invaded Poland
WW3 started when somebody sent an insulting tweet

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fightcitymayor wrote:
Isn't it sad that we never get around to giving a damn about the North Korean people? The stuck-in-time society, the forced obeisance, the possibility of disappearing at a moment's notice, the economic deprivations along with the actual physical deprivations. People are always so consumed with "will that madman launch the nukes or won't he?!" that we barely remember there are 25 million people living under the yoke of a deadly & deranged tyrant every day.


Enough about america now what about North Korea?
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Edgar the Woebringer
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None of this is "good". I'm trying to teach my kids to think, before acting out of anger: "what good will come of this." And even from a selfish standpoint: "what good for ME can come of this."

Our President matching this isolated, insulated Man-Who-Would-Be-King despot insult for insult can in no way result in anything good. It's embarrassing at best, truly dangerous at worst.

Until now, I've welcomed his tweets because they have a direct correlation to damage done to himself and the GOP...and I have come to think that their own foot-shooting is the best hope I have as an independent for some sanity to return to government. But this has gotten into danger territory. He needs to STOP, NOW.
 
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Wendell
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viclineal wrote:


I think a regime change in Chinese terms would be the ideal scenario for China.


Of course - if a stable, anti-American, pro-Chinese non-nuclear government just popped in Pyongyang with control of the entirety of North Korea, Beijing (and others) would be delighted.

But... the hard thing is making sure that regime change follows the path you (the regime changer) wants it to follow. As we've seen from history recent and old, that's far from a guarantee. Overt Chinese meddling in NK could also revive Korean resentment of the Chinese, too...
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Josh
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I think that people are overestimating China's desire for a non-nuclear NK. Conventionaly armed NK loses a ton of value as a boogeyman and a distraction for China.
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Andy Beaton
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Isn't it sad that we never get around to giving a damn about the North Korean people? The stuck-in-time society, the forced obeisance, the possibility of disappearing at a moment's notice, the economic deprivations along with the actual physical deprivations. People are always so consumed with "will that madman launch the nukes or won't he?!" that we barely remember there are 25 million people living under the yoke of a deadly & deranged tyrant every day.


I haven't forgotten the 25 million North Koreans. I don't much want to see them "totally destroyed" by Trump.
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Ad hominem foreign policy, great... just fucking great.
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I think it's quaint how China assumes that North Korea will never ever be a nuclear threat to them.
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