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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Subtle Rules Questions: Suppressing Fire and Negative Melee FP rss

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Chick Lewis
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1) This morning playing a Resistance game we had a situation in which a melee hex had been defined, and then a Supressing Fire event was triggered. “Suppress one enemy unit within both range and LOS of a friendly machine gun”. Donna naturally wanted to suppress one of my units in the melee hex, BUT the melee hex is not targetable by fire.

We decided that by a strict reading, she could suppress a unit in the melee hex, even though the machine gun could not target that hex. That missing 1 FP did, naturally, cause me to tie, rather than win, that Melee.

2) Same game, but another new situation: My broken, suppressed leader Mikhail was trapped by zero movement in melee in a wire hex. His still-boxed FP of 0, we decided, resulted in a melee FP of 0 +1 (boxed FP) -1 (suppression) -1 (wire) = -1. By a strict reading of the rules, I think this correct, but I have a hazy memory hinting that the lowest allowed Melee FP = 0.

IF Mikhail had accompanied another friendly unit in that melee, it doesn't feel right that his negative total should have subtracted from the melee FP of the other unit.

Please set us straight here.

Thanks for any and all knowledge and advice.

Chick (and Donna)
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Michael Olsen
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chicklewis wrote:
1) This morning playing a Resistance game we had a situation in which a melee hex had been defined, and then a Supressing Fire event was triggered. “Suppress one enemy unit within both range and LOS of a friendly machine gun”. Donna naturally wanted to suppress one of my units in the melee hex, BUT the melee hex is not targetable by fire.


I agree, the event says nothing about "targetable". So you can pick the unit in the melee hex.

chicklewis wrote:
2) Same game, but another new situation: My broken, suppressed leader Mikhail was trapped by zero movement in melee in a wire hex. His still-boxed FP of 0, we decided, resulted in a melee FP of 0 +1 (boxed FP) -1 (suppression) -1 (wire) = -1. By a strict reading of the rules, I think this correct, but I have a hazy memory hinting that the lowest allowed Melee FP = 0


Tricky. I did a search for 'Negative' in the rulebook and only came across negative cover. I believe you have it right that his FP is negative. Talk about poor leadership.
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Trevor Wilson
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Page 3 of the rulebook says .... " a rule means what it says...."

The hex was in LOS and range, says nothing about "targetable".

I don't think that there is a rule regarding -FP in a melee, I think that the less than 0 rule only applies to a Fire Attack. I would picture the situation that you described as a fair example of the leader's position causing additional panic resulting in a -1FP to the melee hex.
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Christopher Hill
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chicklewis wrote:


2) Same game, but another new situation: My broken, suppressed leader Mikhail was trapped by zero movement in melee in a wire hex. His still-boxed FP of 0, we decided, resulted in a melee FP of 0 +1 (boxed FP) -1 (suppression) -1 (wire) = -1. By a strict reading of the rules, I think this correct, but I have a hazy memory hinting that the lowest allowed Melee FP = 0.

IF Mikhail had accompanied another friendly unit in that melee, it doesn't feel right that his negative total should have subtracted from the melee FP of the other unit.

Chick (and Donna)


Wow, Chick...good one!

I think you played it correctly. There was no reference to negative firepower in melee that I could find.

There was a reference for negative fire power relative to a fire attack. Under O20.3.2 attack hindrances it says that if the modified attack total is 0 or less the shot can not be attempted.

I would think the negative fire power in melee might mean the unit(s) are beat down very badly. When the melee roll is made this just represents a last ditch effort to stay alive.

One other thing to consider...if your leader is in wire, in melee so is the enemy. Their units would also suffer the -1 modifier and if there are more than one unit the impact of the wire would be greater to them.
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Chick Lewis
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Think about your melee with broken, suppressed Mikhail and his squad in wire. You PRAY that your opponent will play an Ambush against you, as that Ambush will actually IMPROVE your melee FP when you send Mikhail to the casualty track.

I can't shake a mental image of poor Mikhail cowering, pulling a blanket over his head, Screaming "Сви ћемо умријети!!" (We are all going to die)" before one of his squad puts the Tokorov muzzle to his temple and pulls the trigger.

Thanks for confirming us on the proper rules, friends !
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Chick Lewis
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Kinga1965, you are right about the wire. I have (three times in the past) played "Hidden Wire" on units advancing into one of my friendly hexes for that very reason.
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Thomas V
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
chicklewis wrote:
1) This morning playing a Resistance game we had a situation in which a melee hex had been defined, and then a Supressing Fire event was triggered. “Suppress one enemy unit within both range and LOS of a friendly machine gun”. Donna naturally wanted to suppress one of my units in the melee hex, BUT the melee hex is not targetable by fire.


I agree, the event says nothing about "targetable". So you can pick the unit in the melee hex.


The event also says nothing about the status of the unit carrying the weapon that has los and range. It however feels not ok that a suppressed or broken team can suppress fire. Thats at least how we play it.
 
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Chick Lewis
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Seems Chad and Kai did not miss that, Thomas.

E75. Suppressing Fire
When this event occurs, the receiving player may place a Suppression marker on one enemy unit without one. The chosen enemy unit must be within both the current Range and LOS of one of the receiving player's unbroken MGs possessed by an unbroken, unsuppressed friendly unit.

(My emphasis above)
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Thomas V
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chicklewis wrote:
Seems Chad and Kai did not miss that, Thomas.

E75. Suppressing Fire
When this event occurs, the receiving player may place a Suppression marker on one enemy unit without one. The chosen enemy unit must be within both the current Range and LOS of one of the receiving player's unbroken MGs possessed by an unbroken, unsuppressed friendly unit.

(My emphasis above)


Ah i see. It was not mentioned in the card text though 😛
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Chick Lewis
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And you have been playing the event exactly correctly !!
 
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David Lanphear
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chicklewis wrote:
1) This morning playing a Resistance game we had a situation in which a melee hex had been defined,


Chick what does this mean? If melee in CC:R is the same as CC:E then once the firepower of all units in melee is determined, any subsequent events triggers can not go back and change the pre-determined melee fp. The only thing that can halt the melee from completion is if an event which eliminated all units of one side.

So while suppressing fire could break a unit, the FP is still locked in.

Nothing is retroactive in CC.

 
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David desJardins
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StocktonDave wrote:
If melee in CC:R is the same as CC:E


It's not. Read Resistance rule R5 if you want to know how melee works in CC:R.
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David Lanphear
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Send me a copy. Hence the question.
 
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David desJardins
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StocktonDave wrote:
Send me a copy. Hence the question.


Did you look? Combat Commander: Resistance! -- playbook
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Chick Lewis
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StocktonDave, in Resistance, Melee timing works similarly to Stalingrad. All melees resolve at the beginning of the German player turn. Therefore if Germans or Partisans enter an enemy hex, there can be some time for 'shenanigans' (I love huffman123's word) to take place before the melee resolves.
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Dan Huffman
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chicklewis wrote:
StocktonDave, in Resistance, Melee timing works similarly to Stalingrad. All melees resolve at the beginning of the German player turn. Therefore if Germans or Partisans enter an enemy hex, there can be some time for 'shenanigans' to take place before the melee resolves.



Note that unlike Stalingrad, there is no overstacking allowed, for either side. Also note that Leaders don't affect anything except for weapons on the Resistance Side!!
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David Lanphear
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Chick & Dan thanks for the explanations.
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