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Subject: My thoughts on Legion as an Imperial Assault Player rss

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Grish
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I’ve been a Star Wars fan my whole life and when FFG released X-Wing in 2012, I jumped right in. While playing X-Wing, I made some new friends and discovered an entire community of Star Wars fans more crazy about that universe than me!

In those heady early years, FFG was knocking things out of the park when it came to Star Wars. As fans of the franchise, we never had it so good. X-Wing gave us ships that were display quality models. Imperial Assault gave us the best looking minis ever produced till then. Armada ships, although not to scale, were affordable and beautiful. Everything looked great and on top of that, all these games had solid rules too.

Then there was the Roleplaying game, and though it has it’s faults, it was well produced and had great art. We also got Rebellion, or “Star Wars in a box” with quality miniatures in a tiny scale. Every time FFG did something with Star Wars, it was exciting. The only problem was we never had enough time or money for each game!

Then at Gencon 50 they announced Star Wars Legion and everything changed for me.

This was the first time I felt dirty for my love of FFG. Now granted, they always did little dick moves by not including enough dice in a game, or making you buy multiple Core Sets to actually play, or buy blisters of factions you wouldn’t play just for the cards. Sure, they did their greedy little tricks but because their games were so good, and looked so great, I think most of us just accepted it and gave them a pass. Yet with Legion, I think the dark side is too strong with FFG and the disrespect too great to their loyal customers – but I’ll get to that in a second. First, lets look at what this game has to offer.

The graphic design on the cards looks top notch, in line with FFG’s high standards for presentation.

As far as Legion‘s game mechanics, they look good. After watching some play throughs of the demo from Gencon, it’s safe to say the game has some innovative mechanics and depth to it.

Compared to say X-Wing, there is a greater dice pool for more variance, and that’s good news. X-wing started with 3-4 dice per standard attack and there are only one type of attack and defence dice. This has led to serious design issues with the game as more ships were added. There is only so much you can do with such a limited number of dice!

Legion has 3 types of dice which look to be used for both defence or offence and we’ve seen attacks that roll 6 dice at once. That’s a nod to Armada, which gave ships more dice than X-Wing. Having more dice is a good thing. It gives the designers more design room in the future and it can mitigate the luck factor.

The movement rules look to be fresh and fast. Moving the commander of a squad and then reforming around him definitely speeds up a tabletop war game. Even the movement rule where speeders must always move forward is an interesting one.

I like what they did with the initiative order. Each commander has a set of commander cards you add to your initiative hand. You spend these cards trying to guess what your opponent will play. If you think he will play an initiative 1 card, why not play your garbage 4 card anyway to get it out of your hand? However, maybe you really need to go first this turn, or maybe your opponent is bluffing and you can play your 2 card and go first… It’s a great mechanic.

The deployment cards look fantastic. Players take turns eliminating deployment type and area. This makes sure every game is different, with different objectives and pushes players to make more balanced lists in case they have to deploy in a bad way. This appears to be a tweak on Armada‘s Objectives which is an improvement over X -Wing having no objectives. From what I gather, this game looks like a natural progression in FFG’s style of game design, although maybe having lots of cards for this type of game all over the place will get annoying. Overall I think Legion looks to be a promising tabletop experience.

So what’s my beef with Legion then? Well it’s the scale and the miniatures.

The only reason to go 35mm vs the existing 30mm they have for Imperial Assault is to make their existing 30mm Star Wars miniatures incompatible with their new game.

There is no other practical reason to go from 30mm up to 35mm. As far as I can see it’s a big “fuck you, shut your mouth and buy more shit” to the fans who have been supporting their Star Wars lines. I really don’t get why they would do such a thing.



If they wanted to change the scale, they could have went 15mm to give us epic battles the size of Hoth. You could fit larger models on the table like the venerable AT-AT, or multiple AT-ST’s.

If FFG was thinking of making a skirmish game (which is what Legion is) near the scale of IA then it would have been considerate to their IA customers and, in my opinion, a good business move to keep things in the same scale.

I’ve seen people online argue, “is FFG supposed to be communist? Don’t they have a right to make money? Why would they make the ranges compatible? It’s all Whaaa Whaaa you’re a crybaby.”

This argument comes from people that haven’t spent months painting extensive collections of Imperial Assault. Obviously FFG is supposed to make money, no one is arguing that. However, a smart company tries to treat it’s consumers with respect.

When you sell luxury items, you should be instilling an element of fun and joy into the sale. If I have an extensive collection of IA Stormtroopers, I don’t feel joy at Legion‘s announcement, I actually feel a little sick because FFG is essentially selling the same miniatures over again. Doubles of Dewbacks, doubles of rebel troopers, doubles of R2 and C-3P0 all in the 30mm range. Do people need doubles of 30mm Star Wars models in their display cases? Do people want to paint the same shit over again?

If FFG made the scale compatible, IA collectors would still have to spend lots of money to play the game at tourneys. They would still need to buy those upgrade cards, right? Legion could have rewarded IA players by allowing them to inject their collections at home with new models. Even if IA players didn’t want to play Legion, they might have picked up a few blister packs of troopers for the new poses and conversion opportunities. IA players could also proxy at home and try out the game that way.

If they wanted to change the scale a few mm then why not go with pre-painted models? At least do something different, offer something different to your Star Wars customers! Legion essentially offers the IA model collector nothing.

Keeping the scale compatible would create massive amounts of good will and a fanatical love for FFG. Now, it creates a feeling of resentment to people who have spent $1000s of dollars and perhaps hundreds of hours painting their earlier 30mm Star Wars line. It also creates a barrier to entry as many people will not want to double their collection. Legion will not be cheap either. In X-wing you could buy in at $200 and play at tourneys. Legion will cost considerably more, and even more of peoples time if they paint and make scenery.

Let’s take a look at the company FFG is competing with, Games Workshop. GW get’s tons of hate for the way they run their company and pricing structure (FFG is now squarely in that pricing structure for miniatures btw). Yet, all GW’s 30mm Warhammer 40K box games use figures that are interchangeable with their main 30mm 40K tabletop game. One of the best examples of this is Space Hulk. This is the classic game that got me into the Warhammer universe as a child. All the models in Space Hulk can be used in a tabletop game of 40K. They did the same with Necromunda and many others. It’s just smart business on GW’s part. Why wouldn’t FFG do this with Legion?

Scale isn’t the only problem with the figures in Legion. Personally, I don’t think they look that good. The figures in IA look to be more truescale whereas the ones in Legion are clearly heroscale. For those that might not know, heroscale is when miniatures are sculpted “heroically” and thus have larger hands, feet and heads. This might work in 40K but for me it doesn’t work representing the Star Wars aesthetic.

Just look at how absurd the Legion model of Luke looks next to the IA model for Luke. He has a pumpkin head the size of his body! “Look at the size of that thing!”


(Thanks to Sorastro for letting me use his photo.)

So far all the troopers in Legion look stocky and “blocky.” The design esthetic of this game doesn’t sit well with me.

Another thing to consider is that no other company out there does hard plastic figures on a sprue as well as GW, both in quality and design. Maybe Malifaux comes close but if Legion will be PVC like Runewars, then FFG really should lower their prices.

On top of all that I expect FFG’s usual marketing antics. Just watch, the core set won’t have enough dice and the upgrade cards will be cross faction forcing you to buy outside your preferred faction.

Will the starter heroes be unplayable soon after release? IA never sees Chewie or Han hit the table. X-Wing never sees Luke Skywalker hit the table. I bet this game will have the same issues but cost a lot more money to play.

If the scales were at least compatible with IA, I would definitely buy some figures, ridiculous heroscale or no, because I would want to augment my IA collection. Who knows, maybe those purchases would have sucked me in like some Star Wars junkie. As it stands now I’m giving this game a hard pass. It’s the first Star Wars game from FFG that has a certain stink to it.



I hope it’s not a sign of things to come from them!



All that being said, when I take a step back and look at what FFG has done with the Star Wars IP as a whole, I am happy and grateful for the smash hits they’ve produced. I don’t want to come off as a total negative Nancy. It’s just that I see Legion as a missed opportunity and a letdown.

Original Post here:

http://dockingbay416.com/arent-you-a-little-short-for-a-stor...
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Derry Salewski
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Wtf just post the whole thing or don't even bother.

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Grish
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SpruePunch wrote:
R2EQ wrote:
they always did little dick moves by not including enough dice in a game

Similar to not including an entire post in a thread?


Not really no. You are being a bit of one though.

The host site has has no advertising. It's just inserting pictures is a pain.

I edited the article and inserted the pictures for those who don't want to click on the link.
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brian
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I don't get it. If you want, just use your IA figures with the new rules. if you want to play with the new figures that aren't in IA, you'd have to buy them anyway.

Or just mix and match. If money is the primary concern, the mis-matched scale should be the least of your worries.

I am fully invested in IA and will be fully invested in Legion. I think I may step off of X-Wing at this point to offset my costs but I've been considering that for the last couple of waves. We'll see what happens with Armada.

But I'm in for Legion and fine with what they did. Two different games. I don't see the dick move.
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Greg
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I can understand this is a comcern for some. Some people also seemed to be bothered because the minis don't come pre-painted like X-Wing or Armada.

I know several people with Imperial Assault and they haven't painted theirs, so I suspect at least there are plenty that haven't the time investment of the OP.

I don't have IA, so me getting Legion won't be an issue. There may be others that will get Legion that don't have IA.

If Legion was the same scale as IA, wouldn't there be some duplication, where you wouldn't be able to play multiples of certain characters? So, same scale wouldn't matter in some cases I don't imagine.
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Norman Hale
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I might try and make the smaller figures work. maybe build up the bases so at least the heads will be eye level. The heroic proportions on luke are a little frightening.

After seeing your post with the stormtroopers, I am not sure it will look right. The bases on the legion figures look pretty thick compared to the IA figures.
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Barry Clark
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Quote:
The only reason to go 35mm vs the existing 30mm they have for Imperial Assault is to make their existing 30mm Star Wars miniatures incompatible with their new game.


Yea I am not sure it was the correct play by FFG changing the size, but what is stopping you from buying the core set and using your IA minis? If you are that concerned then proxy up any new expansion cards with your existing minis.

Yea if you want to play competitively then you will have to 'pony up' the cash but that’s the choice you make when you choose to play in that arena.

FFG is a company and they live and die on good use of the IP, I do not agree with lots of decisions they make.... Conquest/GOT/Destiny/runewars minis/X_wing, they seem to throw products out far too quickly, no sooner that you have the new pack, then there is a new one and a new one.... BUT they have made some incredible games that have given me some of the memorable times of my 'gaming life'.

I am sure you would not complain about the fact you can't use descent minis to play imperial assault or vice-versa even tho they are pretty much the same rule set. (well you can, but it would be strange)

FFG are annoying but they are currently the best we have in terms of quality IP releases.




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James
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I own the core box of Imperial Assault.

I for one am glad they went to a slightly larger scale.

I don't have to collect all of the Imperial Assault expansions just to play a war game from day one.
So I am very more then happy with them distancing both product lines straight out of the gate, and by doing just that with an Iron Wall of a scale change means its set in stone. Which is awesome.
If they had done the same scale... there would have been a push sooner or later to do a cross over. Or worse intergrate the two product lines.
Which means sooner or later I would have had to buy all those Imperial Assualt expansions/boxes that I just don't want.

The scale difference puts an end to all of that. It means I can start day one on the exact same level as everyone else. It also means my purchasing only has to keep up with the current release schedule, and not a huge backlog of products.

Lastly, game balance. They don't have to attempt to balance out all the new stuff with all star wars imperial assault. They can start off with a nice flat surface to begin on, and the meta can develop on its own with out being influenced at all by Imperial Assault products.

I don't care why FFG did the scale change. I only care that they did do it.

I also don't care if anyone I play against uses the wrong sized minis if they want. In wargaming this would be called a "counts as" model. War gamers do it all the time, along with proxy minis and even miniatures from completely other companies.

I understand your opinion, however my opinion is that its really a non issue and once you understand the wargaming community you will see its for the best.
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Grish
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SlayerofWorlds wrote:

If they had done the same scale... there would have been a push sooner or later to do a cross over. Or worse intergrate the two product lines.
Which means sooner or later I would have had to buy all those Imperial Assualt expansions/boxes that I just don't want.


Not necessarily. FFG could have ignored those figures for tourney reasons entirely, just as they're doing now.

If they kept the scale the same, they would have, in my opinion, tempted IA players who obviously love 30mm Star Wars minis to buy in. Now it's a barrier to entry and splits the player base.

FFG also has a Star Wars roleplaying game. Many roleplayers buy IA packs to use in their games. By keeping the scale the same they would have helped out that community too.

A lot of this thing is collecting and painting, not just tourney playing. If all their 30mm miniatures were compatible and interchangeable it would have been a respectful nod to the collector and painter who has supported them since 2014.

I am perplexed that many new Legion players wouldn't want the option of compatibility. Keeping the scale the same just gives the hobbyist more options.
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100% agree with Grish. As a hobbyist you just want the options. I am a hobby player and I like improvising, writing my own scenarios and flesh out my games just to make them feel more like Star Wars.

Eg. if an IA Scenario says “all neutral counters are Wookies“ I can easily put 10 Wookies from the old WotC Game on the table and that is a lot of fun.

So I don't see the benefit for the players of two different scales

I also have a large collection of MPC, AMT, Revell and Hasbro models which I bought just because their scale is roughly compatible to 30 mm. Some of them fit better some of them worse, so there might still be a possibility that Legion minis fit more or less.
But it would just have been so much better if they just fitted perfectly. I am not arguing because of my budget, I rather think “Why bother, it doesn't even fit in my collection“. If I get bored with my IA minis, I still might buy legion. But otherwise it would be a no brainer to get the box first day after its release.
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Nolan Cluff

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I'm not interested in Legion as IA better scratches my RPG itch, but I might be interested in the minis. The scale change means I'll give it a pass. But, if my buddy has the game, I'll play.
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Mikael Svensson
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Would it feel better for you if IA had no models and just used meeples instead? Or how about tokens? I understand you are hurt when your boardgame pieces are not the same size as Legion tabletop models. I get that you want to use one games pieces in a completely different game and now find that the two are not entirely interchangeable, despite their overall likeness. You feel offended by the, in your view, overly large Luke and just want a smaller and more manageable Luke, one that is a bit small for a stormtrooper. It is not the least bit weird. You believing you are entitled is though.

You will not in any way be forced to play Legion. You can just ignore it and continue to play IA skirmish to your hearts content. Why even ventilate your bewilderment?

Yeah, I know, you are entitled to have an opinion...... I know....
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I was in FFG Flight Report when they announced it. I was like cool! They are finally releasing a ground version of X-Wing! And I was thinking about my IA miniatures, Boba Fett, Han Solo, Chewbacca etc etc...Because at the announcement, I certainly didn't even think they would not be compatible. And then FFG pulls the finger, telling me "nope, you are not playing with those you painted, we are going to sell you another Han Solo instead". Really? I completely understand Grish pain.

Take by example Dust Tactics, FFG published it as a boardgame, with plenty of additionnal minis. Then they released a book with the rules to play with them like a typical miniature game. You could even buy the minis pre-painted (Premium) if you wanted. Now, what if Dust Tactics would have been Legion instead. Would it have failed like it did for FFG? Damn, I would be broke by now...

It's unfortunate, but it will affect the community. Some IA players will play Legion with their IA mini, but they won't participate in tournaments. Some IA Players will switch to Legion, selling their collections.

Now, is FFG going to pull off a GW move? Sell 5 Legion Stormtroopers twice the price of 5 IA Stormtroopers?
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Jim Patching
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Vuud wrote:
Now, is FFG going to pull off a GW move? Sell 5 Legion Stormtroopers twice the price of 5 IA Stormtroopers?


GW makes all of the minis you can buy cheap in boxed sets and board games completely compatible with their mini wargames so that would be the complete opposite of pulling off a 'GW move'.
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Stuart Holttum
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The thing is....FFG are probably not going to sell any fewer figures by releasing Legion in a different scale, but may well sell more.

Consider: releasing in the same scale would most likely mean loss of any sales from IA players up to the number of figures they already have - nobody with an IG-88 for IA would buy one for Legion. Changing scale makes it far more likely that IA players will "double-purchase" figures. Not guaranteed, but more likely than if they were the same scale.

The downside for FFG is annoying that portion of the potential player base for Legion who already are heavily invested in IA, to the level where those people will not buy ANY Legion product. I suspect that that is a rather small dollar value compared to what they expect to get.

So from a sales and marketing perspective, ironically the best strategy is to annoy some of your prospective customers....

And think: how much "buzz" has been generated as a result of the differing scales? "There is no bad advertising", and all that.....
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panzer-attack wrote:
Vuud wrote:
Now, is FFG going to pull off a GW move? Sell 5 Legion Stormtroopers twice the price of 5 IA Stormtroopers?


GW makes all of the minis you can buy cheap in boxed sets and board games completely compatible with their mini wargames so that would be the complete opposite of pulling off a 'GW move'.


Oh, I totally remember when I was playing 40k Epic 1st Edition. They came out with 2nd edition, and the boxes were literally half the content for the same price. That's a GW Move. Blood Bowl 2016, affordable teams! Unless you want Star Players...Only at Forgeworld. Stores are cut off. Another GW Move. Wait,you said cheap minis in board games? Have you seen the prices of those board games? For a board gamer, it's like, wtf! 150$ for warhammer quest...yes. The minis are awesome. But how many board gamers bought it? Let's not talk about GW, it's endless

FFG on the other side has always provided good value. IA came with both a boardgame and a skirmish game. The minis are great in my point of view. Legion can totally be played with IA minis. I can't see any reasons for why they moved to 35mm. Heck, with FFG current model, an IA player would still have to buy Legion products to get the cards and upgrades just like in X-Wing. But they would have the options to use their models in different pose, add an extra squad or two without buying more models. Reuse Painted models. I just can't think of a good reason of this move.

Can someone give at least a good reason to go 35mm? Like "It will be better because it allows for this that 30mm can't offer"?
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Jim Patching
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Vuud wrote:
Wait,you said cheap minis in board games? Have you seen the prices of those board games? For a board gamer, it's like, wtf! 150$ for warhammer quest...yes. The minis are awesome. But how many board gamers bought it? Let's not talk about GW, it's endless


Depends what country you're in I guess. Over here right now on Amazon you can get Imperial Assault for £75.97 and Warhammer Quest Silver Tower for £77.99. Pretty much the same price and one game has far better miniatures in it that you can also use for the mini war game.

I'm not knocking FFG generally in terms of value though, I think their games are usually pretty good value.
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Grish
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You make a lot of good point Vuud.

Vuud wrote:
Heck, with FFG current model, an IA player would still have to buy Legion products to get the cards and upgrades just like in X-Wing. But they would have the options to use their models in different pose


This is the main thing, you'd still need the cards so I don't see how it would affect sales too much.
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By keeping the two games in the same scale they might have lost some sales. By doing them in different scales they absolutely lost some sales.

Which will prove to be more? Is it something that can even be quantified? Even if there is some solid reason for it, it seems like a money grab. How much is that worth - plus or minus?

I know too many of the Star Wars gamers who buy at least one of everything, just for the cards. If they go for the new game, they'll do the same, same scale or not. If they go for the new game though.

Sticking to the same scale was a no brainer (imho, but they never asked me - it would actually have been nice if they had floated this project before getting too deep into it, to gauge how the community would accept it). They have a whole catalog of figures ready to play. Cards cost them pennies. They could have marketed sets of cards for the existing figure line to use in Legion. For example, a Bounty Hunter set. All the cards to play Boba Fett, Dengar, all of them. Would have cost them less than $1. Would have sold it for $15 or so? Instant profit with minimal capitol investment in molds. Starts the new game off solidly in the black. Later, they can come back and sell an alternate pose of each bounty hunter, with new and better cards. Same thing they will do anyway, but in this model, they already made money, they brought in a segment that would have excluded themselves from this market, and they start the game off with a ready catalog of troops and characters for people to play.

Similarly, there could have been a card set for our core heroes. Then come back later with, Commander Skywalker (Echo Base)©, Commander Skywalker (Rebel Pilot)©, Bespin Luke©, and Luke Skywalker: Jedi Knight and Friend of Captain Solo©. And they would buy them all, because the figures would be gorgeous, and they would have to have them.

And they're still going to sell fig. Do you know how many Stormtroopers you're going to need for this? It's a lot. Boxes and boxes.

So, could you the player do this anyway? Pick up the game and use your existing figs? Absolutely. Will people do custom rules for their existing figs that don't have rule yet? Of course. Have you seen the market for custom Armada ships on Shapeways? Go look in the BGG forum for Armada. I dare ya. But 'forcing' players to buy minis they don't want to play a game they do want, just leaves a bad taste in their mouths.

One last note. A lot of people have painted their IA figs. That takes a lot of time. Painted minis add a lot to them play experience for both players and observers, and help sell the game - so much so, that GW wouldn't let you play in their stores with unpainted figs... that they just sold you! Having people playing this game with their already painted IA figs sells the game to others. T would have been a win-win.

So is there any way for them to go back?
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Jak Mac Ewen
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I used my WotC Star Wars Minis for IA, and I plan to use then for Legion as well.
If all the same scale minis are used, than the slight variance in scale, won't make any difference.

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If they wanted to change the scale, they could have went 15mm to give us epic battles the size of Hoth. You could fit larger models on the table like the venerable AT-AT, or multiple AT-ST’s.

Oh man, thats the only missing scale...if Legion is a big hit and Mythic Games' 15mm Joan of Arc is a big hit, perhaps FFH would venture into the 15mm scale..that would be simply awesome. Sort of like GW's Epic 40k. They could even keep it the same system - it would work seamlessly.

Huge Hoth like battles with AT-ATs, hundreds of troopers, etc etc.

Put it in between X-Wing and Legion. That would be amazing.

Anyway, I never got into IA because I am not a fan of "dungeon crawler" style board games. I longed for a true Star Wars miniatures tabletop game, and I knew I wouldn't find it in IA.

Now my prayers have been answered, and I do think there are a lot of miniature gamers out there that will go all in on this.

I do sympathize with your issue of having to buy/repaint the "same minis" but as far as FFG and fans that haven't bought into IA see it, this is a new, fresh game with new, sweet looking miniatures.

I think this game will be a huge success despite some disappointed IA collectors.
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Jim Johnson
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DarthJak wrote:
I used my WotC Star Wars Minis for IA, and I plan to use then for Legion as well.
If all the same scale minis are used, than the slight variance in scale, won't make any difference.



I agree with you completely. Since I don't have IA, I'll buy enough Legion to get the cards I want - maybe a few of the specialty miniatures. For the rest of the troops, I'll dip into my cargo container full of Wotc minis. They are painted, they are available, and play just as well as 35mm minis.

I have no interest in playing in tourneys; so, a slight difference in size won't matter to me. My game group's motto is "Proxy with Pride!"

But, let's have no illusions about why FFG changed the scale - deep down we all know it was to squeeze all the cash they can out of the game. I agree with the OP in that the difference in scale will probably cost them more in lost sales than keeping the scales the same and allowing the IA minis to be used.

I am wondering, though, if the Legion rules will work with larger battles (2-3 platoons per side). From what I've seen with the runthrough videos, the forces are not nearly that large. I have a set of home-brewed rules based on the Wotc rules; but, I'm looking for something better. I have the old SW miniatures rules that came out in the 90's; but, don't really like them.
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R2EQ wrote:
There is no other practical reason to go from 30mm up to 35mm. As far as I can see it’s a big “fuck you, shut your mouth and buy more shit”

The different scales of IA and Legion suck. I have so many painted Imperial Assault figures.

But FFG isn't just f'u'ing thier Star Wars fans.

They're also f'u'ing their Terrinoth fans with Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition) and Runewars Miniatures Game. Those are also different scales by a head.

It's their business model.

I never thought I'd say this, but in this case, at least GW wins here. GW keeps their current lines in the same universe all the same scale.

Even before Star Wars: Legion is released, I'm out.
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If FFG could honestly stand up and say 'Changing the scale had nothing to do with making it incompatible with IA' then I have no problem. I feel no entitlement to being able to play legion with my IA stuff. What I have a problem with is that I feel like they did it solely for the above reason. Just so that they would be incompatible. And that really is a big middle finger to their loyal customer base.
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Jjdelanoche wrote:
If FFG could honestly stand up and say 'Changing the scale had nothing to do with making it incompatible with IA'.


Incompatibility has everything to do with making money.

Whatever they're doing, it's worked for them so far.

PP and GW follow a different model. Then again, FFG is probably beating them when it comes to the bottom line. Since I've never seen any revenue comparisons, this is a total guess.
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