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War Titans: Invaders Must Die!» Forums » General

Subject: Why such a slow build? rss

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Nathan McCullough
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Hey all, just curious what your thoughts were on why the funding is going so slowly.

I think it _LOOKS_ cool, gameplay seems ok, I like the concept and theme of it, it's different from Pandemic, art and characters are cool, customizable mechs, etc.

What's the biggest issue for you guys that haven't backed yet?
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Shelby Babb
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It's a very expensive game, with ugly cards, produced by first time creators, with mechanics and systems that seem to offer very little long-term replay unless you're fortunate enough to buy more addons and have the KS exclusives.

The idea isn't bad, the miniatures will hopefully be lovely, and I think it will fund. But I'd rather be -playing- Giga Robo than this when all is said and done.
 
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Lance Codarin
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San Dee Jota wrote:
It's a very expensive game, with ugly cards, produced by first time creators, with mechanics and systems that seem to offer very little long-term replay unless you're fortunate enough to buy more addons and have the KS exclusives.
But I'd rather be -playing- Giga Robo than this when all is said and done.


what follows is just my opinion (i'm not affiliated with the company)

- Price is high because there aren't 2 of the same sculpts except for reinforcement and a small company of 2 italian persons can't afford to do what CMON or SODAPOP does.

- italian players have tried the games many times in these 2 years of playtesting and everyone was leaving the table with a smile in the face

- art is a WIP so unfair criticism

- it's a coop game with events, random "seeds", random tyrants and possible permutations between pilots and titans so reaplaybility already is ensured without any expansions or add on

- the expansion actually adds another player and mutates the game from coop to 1 vs many adding plenty of stuff including something usable without the 1 vs many modules

- KS exclusives are included in the pledge and they will be available as promos later on for whoever misses the campaign, just how KS exclusives shopuld work.

- Stretch goals are slated to include more pilots, more titans and more invaders

- they have professional reviews and previews, and those are still coming

- they shooted a full playthrough and posted it online (although they should have put it together better i admit)

- they will have professional english native speaker proofreading everything

- the "first time creator" kind of thing is the most asinine reason not to back something... now it seems that a KS is a preorder system in the minds of BGGers instead of a way to help something fund...

- this is a ks "by the manual"... and yet everyone ignores it???

- giga robo is a skirmish arena fight between robots, this is a coop game (or a 1 vs many if yusing the expansion) in which you pilot mazinga and other things against alien invaders- two different games altogether.

But i guess if The company rethemed this game as "war machines: zombies must die" the money would flow easily!
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Ilja Preuß
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Darklaw90 wrote:
art is a WIP so unfair criticism


How do we know that the final art will be better? We don't.
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Shelby Babb
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Darklaw90 wrote:

- Price is high because there aren't 2 of the same sculpts except for reinforcement and a small company of 2 italian persons can't afford to do what CMON or SODAPOP does.


It doesn't change the fact that the price is high. I mean there are perfectly valid reasons why a giant mansion is expensive, but that doesn't mean people can budget owning them easier.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- italian players have tried the games many times in these 2 years of playtesting and everyone was leaving the table with a smile in the face


I don't doubt it. But what is the -long term- satisfaction level?

Darklaw90 wrote:

- art is a WIP so unfair criticism


It's a toally fair criticism given that the final art could be worse or the same. Personally I think they were on a better track with the card art in the first KS campaign they launched.

I will say I think the kaiju/mech/pilot art is all fine.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- it's a coop game with events, random "seeds", random tyrants and possible permutations between pilots and titans so reaplaybility already is ensured without any expansions or add on


Looking at the game, I'm not convinced this is the case. It seems like in a 4-player game all the Kaiju are cycled through, and the pilot/titan combos seem minor. There's -some- replayability, sure, but I'm not convinced there's a lot of it.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- the expansion actually adds another player and mutates the game from coop to 1 vs many adding plenty of stuff including something usable without the 1 vs many modules


I'm sure it does. It's also a $73 expansion.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- KS exclusives are included in the pledge and they will be available as promos later on for whoever misses the campaign, just how KS exclusives shopuld work.


Which means if you don't go to the cons they go to and get the promos while you can, you miss out.

I -hate- KS exclusives for that reason, but I won't begrudge someone from using them because the truth is they work at getting pledges.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- Stretch goals are slated to include more pilots, more titans and more invaders


Meh. Reach funding first.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- they have professional reviews and previews, and those are still coming


I saw that. Which really only tells me "this product -exists-". Which, honestly, is a heck of good thing for KS IMO.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- they shooted a full playthrough and posted it online (although they should have put it together better i admit)


Same as my point above: it shows they have a product as much as anything.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- they will have professional english native speaker proofreading everything


That's to be expected if you want to sell your game to the US/UK/etc., but it doesn't alleviate the concerns I mentioned above. And "we'll use a pro translator" doesn't always pan out.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- the "first time creator" kind of thing is the most asinine reason not to back something... now it seems that a KS is a preorder system in the minds of BGGers instead of a way to help something fund...


It -is- a preorder system. WT has the decency to come to market with a (near) finished product, because otherwise no intelligent person would back an "idea".

Having an idea, making pictures and cards and such, that all takes a whole different skill set than dealing with producers, shippers, etc.

First time creators aren't a major issue for me, but I know they are for some people.

Darklaw90 wrote:

- this is a ks "by the manual"... and yet everyone ignores it???


???

Darklaw90 wrote:

- giga robo is a skirmish arena fight between robots, this is a coop game (or a 1 vs many if yusing the expansion) in which you pilot mazinga and other things against alien invaders- two different games altogether.


True. They are different, but the idea of customizing pilot/mech combos for city smashing fighting seems (to me) better implemented in Giga-Robo.

Give it some Kaiju options and campaigning, and you're set.

Darklaw90 wrote:

But i guess if The company rethemed this game as "war machines: zombies must die" the money would flow easily!


Enh. Zombies are over I think.

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Nathan McCullough
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I honestly am not sure what you guys have against the art? The characters and monsters look great, the board has been updated on the page and looks good.

The biggest thing I think that should be redone is the card design with all the text. But that's not 'art' - so, what's the issue with it that I'm not seeing?

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Nathan McCullough
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San Dee Jota wrote:
It -is- a preorder system. WT has the decency to come to market with a (near) finished product, because otherwise no intelligent person would back an "idea".


I disagree with this wholeheartedly. KS may have the veneer of a preorder system, but it is not that. There are literally thousands and thousands of peoples personal ideas they want funded to become reality.

It is NOT a pre-order system, it's always a gamble. You don't know what's going to happen with the company, the money, the product. And least of all, you don't know how something is going to work until you get it into your hands and use it. This can be for any kind of product, tv, tech, music, etc.

I fully understand this is an expensive KS and time will tell if I pull my backing - but as of now, it looks ok and I'd be willing to gamble on it being a good product in the end. But I by no means am thinking I'm pre-ordering something. If they don't deliver whatever REWARDS they are promising, then you can file a complaint with KS. I use the word REWARDS there because it doesn't say PRODUCT or BOARDGAME. The rewards are whatever the KS creator makes them. It could be a board game that cost 40$, but your rewards are only listed as a 'thank you' in the manual.

You are literally helping someone get funding to do something, if you like enough of what they say then you give them money. This reward for giving them money is NORMALLY a product, but it doesn't have to be. That's why this is NOT supposed to be a pre-order system. And why I think people are routinely disappointed with KS games. (and other products)

/rant
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Shelby Babb
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Adonai_80 wrote:
I honestly am not sure what you guys have against the art?


Like I said before, but to clarify: the graphic design of the cards is pretty bland and ugly. Character art is fine, board art is adequate.
 
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Shelby Babb
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Adonai_80 wrote:

It is NOT a pre-order system, it's always a gamble.


But you -expect- a product for your money.

Adonai_80 wrote:
You don't know what's going to happen with the company, the money, the product.


In this regard, you are right. Which is why the risk-to-reward ratio of KS is important. And a $200 game from a first time creator is a heck of a high risk.

Adonai_80 wrote:
And least of all, you don't know how something is going to work until you get it into your hands and use it.


More risk-to-reward consideration. Which is why any successful game KS has to have playthrough videos, rulebooks online, and trusted reviewers.

Which -is- the case here.

Adonai_80 wrote:
This can be for any kind of product, tv, tech, music, etc.


But we're on BGG talking about KS projects for games, so those items are irrelevant.

----

Ultimately someone asked "why isn't this game doing better" and I gave multiple common and straightforward complaints. People can make counter-arguments, offer explanations, and so on... but it won't get more funding.
 
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Nathan McCullough
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I think the point is being missed that ANY KS no matter if its a board game or a new smart watch is a gamble, not a pre-order. I guess there will always be people that see it a different way.

My main question had to do with whats wrong with the KS in its current form - art was listed as a main concern. Past that, they have game play videos, so if that's an issue for some I'd like to hear the opinions on WHY the gameplay is/isn't good.

The issue that it's a high price is a valid one, but I've backed a bunch of high priced stuff on KS and that isn't as much an issue for me, it's more of what I'm getting.

Again, I'm not even sure if I'm going to continue backing it and this thread was meant to give insight into why people may or may not be backing it.

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Ilja Preuß
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Frankly, I'm starting to think that I should need a good reason to back. So far I don't see one.
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Shelby Babb
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Adonai_80 wrote:
I think the point is being missed that ANY KS no matter if its a board game or a new smart watch is a gamble, not a pre-order. I guess there will always be people that see it a different way.


Fair enough, but if you go that route ("it's a gamble") then that's -less- reassuring than the other option ("it's a pre-order").

Personally, I don't think the gamble of delivery is all that high; I expect this -will- deliver if it funds. I'm just not convinced what delivers will be worth it. The lackluster art design on the cards, combined with the "English as a second language" presentation of it all, doesn't inspire confidence.

Adonai_80 wrote:
My main question had to do with whats wrong with the KS in its current form - art was listed as a main concern. Past that, they have game play videos, so if that's an issue for some I'd like to hear the opinions on WHY the gameplay is/isn't good.


My main concern with gameplay isn't that it's bad, but that it looks repetitive. You play the game, cycle through the titans/pilots/Invaders and cards, and then get to one of the 4 Final episodes. It sounds to me that if you play it four times you've seen all there is in the core game?

Granted, lots of other games out there do similar, and maybe that's how I should look at this: a kind of hybrid Euro-American style game, where the different characters lose their mystery in short order and the focus ultimately needs to be on figuring out a samey Pandemic kinda' "puzzle"?

The Overlord looks to add some meat, but I'm not sure.

Damn it.... Now I'm actually considering this....

Adonai_80 wrote:
The issue that it's a high price is a valid one, but I've backed a bunch of high priced stuff on KS and that isn't as much an issue for me, it's more of what I'm getting.


I respect that. There's like 80 Invaders (40mm), 7 Titans (50mm), and 12 supports (30mm) for a total of 99 minis (of which only 12 are duplicate sculpts). -Then- you have the board and components. Massive Darkness only has 75 minis, and a lot of them are duplicates and at a smaller scale. And it sells for $96 at CSI. $120 for a core game here isn't ridiculous, but it -is- still a lot.

The RotO expansion adds more stuff, but I'm not convinced it adds $73 worth. -But- the number of exclusive's and stretch goals do help a bit. -But but- the exclusives are currently kind of sparse, and the stretch goals are uncertain.

Retailers get a discount, yes, but they won't be selling it for much less than the KS prices (you -might- be lucky and get free shipping).

Adonai_80 wrote:
Again, I'm not even sure if I'm going to continue backing it and this thread was meant to give insight into why people may or may not be backing it.


Honestly, I think the presentation is the single biggest stumbling block for this game.

They're clearly going for an anime/Pacific Rim kind of vibe, the minis look really good, the gameplay looks adequate (not super exciting, but not terrible either), and the price isn't -that- absurd compared to CMoN games.

But where they stumbled is in presentation.

Get a grammar nazi to work their campaign over. Get a graphic artist to clean up the cards (it's all so dark, and too much of it is bland and amateurish). And then relaunch. Start with just the base game and some cool (easy) stretch goals. Don't tell your backers "you need to spend $230 to get it all" but get them to pledge $120 to start (a core pledge), and then introduce a solo campaign for $10. And then the Calvary expansion for $20. And finally the RotO big expansion for $50 at the end.

People will pay $120 for CMoN pledges without a thought, but they have a proven track record of delivery and backers know what quality to expect. They also don't launch a campaign and say "hey, just give us $300 now and save everyone some time." They build up over the days and weeks, and give backers a chance to break down their reasoning and throw just a little more money at a time. They low-ball the backers, and it works. An unproven new company has an uphill battle trying to get people to pay the full amount all at once, but low balling will help wear down the psychological barriers. "I won't spend $200, but I'll spend $120, and then $10, and then $20 more, and finally cap it off with another $50 just to be done."
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Gláucio Reis
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I'm currently a backer, mainly for the cool theme and miniatures, but I wouldn't back a bad game. Fortunately, the gameplay seems decent.

The biggest problem is the graphic design. The cards look awful. The text in all-caps is utterly annoying and I'm concerned about readability.

The art is not much better. The board art is adequate, but bland. The rest, with the generic anime/manga style, doesn't excite me, either. That style may be liked by a certain niche and may seem a good match for the theme, but it may not be as popular as they think.

If not for the kaiju miniatures, I'd probably not even have pledged, and I may still drop it before the end.
 
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Jason Stapleton
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For me it is the cost. Simply put it's just to high for the amount of content. I think the game sounds really cool and would love to own it, but not at that price.
 
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Piotr Konieczny
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I am on the fence. Minis look great. The rest of the artwork is passable... I like anime style, but there's not much - the character cards look a bit primitive, but it may be that some photos are of old prototype art. The titan cards and main board are passable, but again, they say they are working on the art and the updates reveal some pretty decent stuff.

I am a bit afraid that this is a 'cool minis' + everything average game. I like the theme and idea too, but the relatively unknown designers is a problem given the price (a bit over ~200 euros for the complete set w/ shipping).

Anyway, this may be a moot point: 3 days to go and €38,081 pledged of €55,000 goal. Not a single stretch goal has been unlocked, and with those type of games we know those help a lot. I feel bad for the designers who will take some $$$ hit when this fails, but I am afraid the combination of high price (reasonable, but high nonetheless) and their unknown names is going to hurt them.

Hopefully they will be able to sell the idea to an established company which can polish this up and re-release it. I am afraid this is too ambitious for the current team - yes, mini sell, but usually because they have backing from companies/designers that people know will deliver (think Scythe, Rising Sun, Cthulhu Wars, etc.). Again, I understand everyone needs to start somewhere, but I am afraid the designers of this game are late to the party. These days too many KS backers expect more - like, again, support from people whom they can trust with little reservations (that's why I backed RS, for example).

This is too much of a gamble, and I am afraid this one didn't pay off to the designers.
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Adam Olejarczyk
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True question is: "Do you wanna pay 100$ for minatures and put then on shelf?" (for Warhammer fans is obvious answer)
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Piotr Konieczny
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I think it is more like 200-300 hundred

And yep, that's a big issue. I already did it with Golem Arcana KS, sigh.

Cool-looking shelf though...
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