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Subject: Civil War ends in Spain... rss

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Clay Stone
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Hey Fellas,

So the Civil War ended in Spain with the Nationalist in control. My question is,

1. Is Spain now a German Allie?
2. If Not allied with Germany are they instead influence by Axis?
3. Does Units from Spain come on the map or only when they become "Active"?


Thanks
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Uwe A. Redjac
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claystone wrote:
1. Is Spain now a German Allie?

No. What made you think it would?

claystone wrote:
2. If Not allied with Germany are they instead influence by Axis?

No. Again: What made you think it would?

claystone wrote:
3. Does Units from Spain come on the map or only when they become "Active"?

No they do not 'come on the map'. Yet again: What made you think ... okay you may now see a pattern here.

There is this one sentence early on in the rules:
Quote:
While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
Prefaced by:
Quote:
Please don’t ignore this section.

All these things you mentioned above: They are nowhere in the rules. You are just imagining more to the Civil War Victory than there is.

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Clay Stone
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Thanks U

I like to imagine rules....like everyone else who post about a rule...

Next time don't answer a post if it bothers you...



uweareuter wrote:
claystone wrote:
1. Is Spain now a German Allie?

No. What made you think it would?

claystone wrote:
2. If Not allied with Germany are they instead influence by Axis?

No. Again: What made you think it would?

claystone wrote:
3. Does Units from Spain come on the map or only when they become "Active"?

No they do not 'come on the map'. Yet again: What made you think ... okay you may now see a pattern here.

There is this one sentence early on in the rules:
Quote:
While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.
Prefaced by:
Quote:
Please don’t ignore this section.

All these things you mentioned above: They are nowhere in the rules. You are just imagining more to the Civil War Victory than there is.

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Uwe A. Redjac
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claystone wrote:
Thanks U

I like to imagine rules....like everyone else who post about a rule...

Next time don't answer a post if it bothers you...

You are welcome.
 
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Marc Hanna
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claystone wrote:
Thanks U

I like to imagine rules....like everyone else who post about a rule...

Next time don't answer a post if it bothers you...



Why don't you not read answers that bother you? And no, your questions are not 'like everyone else who posts about a rule' because they are actually asking about rules that do exist!

Perhaps the answer was a bit pointed about making sure you understand that one of the rules is not to imagine something that is not there.

On the other hand, it was 100% spot on.

The game rules are unforgiving to those who don't read them thoroughly, no reason to make it even more difficult by imaging rules that don't even exist

enjoy the game
 
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suPUR DUEper
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I just asked a similar question to the OP's over on the Downtown: Hanoi forum page. I read the rules and yet the implications of certain actions are unclear to me. It is not so much an issue of imagining a rule; it is more the nagging feeling you missed a reference somewhere.

And when you are dealing with 50+ page rulesets, missing an implication happens often enough that it is nice having (usually) friendly, helpful BGG'ers to consult with.

P.S. In the TK2 players guide, the designers spent about 3 pages walking through all the combinations of the Poland '39 status/card play/DOW issues. Yes, all the rules were contained within the ruleset, but due to the complexities of their application, the designers felt it was worthwhile to walk players through all the implications.
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Marc Hanna
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There's no point in projecting possible nagging feelings into imaginative outcomes, no matter how you slice it. Because then, you wind up looking for the imaginative rules reference instead of reading the rules as they are. There is absolutely nowhere in the rules one could infer the imagined outcomes offered by the OP -- therefore it is evident that the rules hadn't been read very well. Especially that important rule in the front of the rule book

 
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Michael Olsen
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There is not point in projecting possible nagging feelings into imaginative outcomes, but there is a point in trying to look for a rule supporting the nagging feeling (since nagging feelings on occasion is there for a reason).

When one can not locate the rule there is a point in asking the *friendly* online community for the answer without fear of being ridiculed.

There is nowhere in the rules one could infer the imagined outcomes offered by the OP, but that is completely besides the point.

Whether the rules has "been read very well" is also besides the point in my opinion. We all do out best and are all entitled to asking the *friendly* online community for help (again, without fear of being ridiculed).

Anyone who has a problem with the nature and/or content of the questions is more than welcome to reading any other thread. Anyone who has something meaningful to contribute is welcome to do exactly that. This is the nature of such a community as this.
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Marc Hanna
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Michael_Olsen wrote:

When one can not locate the rule there is a point in asking the *friendly* online community for the answer without fear of being ridiculed.


If there is something to be found *unfriendly* in a particular remark, isn't there a procedure you can follow to report the remark? I don't think that procedure includes lecturing about your standards of forum etiquette. Is this something you do regularly? Come to forums, go off topic and then assert your opinions about correct forum behaviors?

Quote:

There is nowhere in the rules one could infer the imagined outcomes offered by the OP, but that is completely besides the point.


No, it's actually on-topic. It's not relevant only when juxtaposed against your off-topic insertions into this thread.

Quote:

We all do out best and are all entitled to asking the *friendly* online community for help (again, without fear of being ridiculed).


How can you assert we all do our best, how do you know that is the case here? What is this fear of being ridiculed that seems to be so prevalent in your thinking? Being ridiculed is nothing to fear, being unable to handle it might be. Not that any serious ridicule has been going on around here.

Quote:

Anyone who has a problem with the nature and/or content of the questions is more than welcome to reading any other thread. Anyone who has something meaningful to contribute is welcome to do exactly that. This is the nature of such a community as this.


Well, all of us create the nature of this community. What you are trying to do is dictate how this community is to appear to your standards. If you think that to be meaningful effort, do carry on

 
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Clay Stone
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Last i check we are here to help each other, not lecture us on how a "question" should be asked or if that question is in the rulebook or not...smh..

Some of us are experts in one system over another, and some of us like me are just starting out with this system and had a question. It was a simple question or questions that was met with a smarty remark which was responded in the same way.

And to say that my post is the only post and no others in this whole forum asked questions in a similar fashion is plain nonsense. If you like to bet your house on that one i'll take that bet.


...



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Michael Olsen
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Geez. All I am asking (and I am sure you know this) is that people can ask a question without receiving condenscending replies.

If you are looking for a confrontation please look elsewhere because I am not taking the bait.
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Marc Hanna
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
Geez. All I am asking (and I am sure you know this) is that people can ask a question without receiving condenscending replies.

If you are looking for a confrontation please look elsewhere because I am not taking the bait.


Actually, you initiated the confrontation, I simply stood up to it. Now you're backing off in your righteousness. You don't see that, do you? I think you should take responsibility

I didn't actually see you comment on the rule questions, which are the topic of this thread... let me scroll up and make sure...umm no, you didn't address the topic, and haven't still.

So let's say I come up with a question like this:

'Well, I just captured Antwerp and because I own the hex now, I don't think I need to spend MP when I move there anymore, I imagine that it should cost me 0 MP because that might be in the rules somewhere. But let me make sure by asking the experts to take their valuable time to address this question: can I spend 0 MP from now on when I move into Antwerp?'

The question is, of course, ridicule-ous, and deserving of some ridicule.

So, if it's obvious that someone hasn't read the rules, there is no harm and no foul for calling them out and explaining it to them that they should do a better job of reading the rules.

claystone wrote:
Last i check we are here to help each other, not lecture us on how a "question" should be asked or if that question is in the rulebook or not...smh..

Some of us are experts in one system over another, and some of us like me are just starting out with this system and had a question. It was a simple question or questions that was met with a smarty remark which was responded in the same way.

And to say that my post is the only post and no others in this whole forum asked questions in a similar fashion is plain nonsense. If you like to bet your house on that one i'll take that bet.



Last I checked, you got the help you needed by the guy who gave you a deservedly smarty remark. Here's mine: take more time reading the rules than imagining bizarre outcomes and relying on experts to correct your very odd musings and expecting them to do it with kid gloves.

Last I checked, you were lecturing Uwe on not answering posts if they bothered him. Last I checked, I got lectured by Michael about how we are supposed to respond to questions per his guidelines and that people in this forum can't be expected to handle minor ridicule and condescension like grown-ups.

Lecturing seems to be part of participation in forums...


Finally, it's very true this is a difficult game to master. If you want to learn this game, there are people who are happy to teach you as long as you'll give the impression you'll be an attentive student who reads his assignments Send me a PM and I'll show you the ropes.

That goes for you too, Micheal, if you actually play and own this game. I can't tell???

 
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Matthew M
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Antagonistic, insulting, or otherwise disruptive comments ARE NOT welcome here.

Please use the icon when you see disruptive or antagonistic comments or any other violations of the Community Rules. This serves two purposes:

1- using the icon will bring that post to the attention of forum moderators so they can deal with it appropriately. We prefer that you not respond to the post directly. Responding invites the offender to continue, and if you respond aggressively you may end up dragging yourself down with the offender.

2- if enough users flag a post using the icon then that post will be hidden from general view, preventing others from being exposed to it.

Thanks!
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Thomas Prowell
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Thanks for that note, Admin Matthew!

My belief is that there are no bad questions when it comes to TK and DS. The rules are complicated and presented in a way in which the ramification for certain outcomes isn't always clear. For that reason, I try to be always available to answer questions. Anyone should feel free to message or email me directly if they aren't enjoying the forums. My email address is in the TK and DS rulebooks; I don't always check BGG as often as I should.
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Dave
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thomasprowell wrote:
Thanks for that note, Admin Matthew!

My belief is that there are no bad questions when it comes to TK and DS. The rules are complicated and presented in a way in which the ramification for certain outcomes isn't always clear. For that reason, I try to be always available to answer questions. Anyone should feel free to message or email me directly if they aren't enjoying the forums. My email address is in the TK and DS rulebooks; I don't always check BGG as often as I should.


Thanks, Thomas. The issue is that sometimes there might be a clear explanation in one section of the rules but a consequence in a later section that we weren't aware of. The game is excellent, but it is a challenge to master. Even the ground combat system seems simple at first, but there are nuances to it that provide much more depth. Our group tends to jump in and play and learn as we go. We just like to check in and make sure we haven't missed something without being treated like idiots.
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Marc Hanna
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boyinblue1 wrote:
thomasprowell wrote:
Thanks for that note, Admin Matthew!

My belief is that there are no bad questions when it comes to TK and DS. The rules are complicated and presented in a way in which the ramification for certain outcomes isn't always clear. For that reason, I try to be always available to answer questions. Anyone should feel free to message or email me directly if they aren't enjoying the forums. My email address is in the TK and DS rulebooks; I don't always check BGG as often as I should.


Thanks, Thomas. The issue is that sometimes there might be a clear explanation in one section of the rules but a consequence in a later section that we weren't aware of. The game is excellent, but it is a challenge to master. Even the ground combat system seems simple at first, but there are nuances to it that provide much more depth. Our group tends to jump in and play and learn as we go. We just like to check in and make sure we haven't missed something without being treated like idiots.


The rules are in dire need of an Index; this has been recommended before and hopefully something will be done about it with the next release. This will also help people to stop imagining rules that aren't there, as long as it's done in a thorough fashion. That would save everyone a lot of time, Thomas, as we try to cover some of the questions that do pop up. Generally, I think those of us that try do a pretty good job for you, and you are welcome.

I should probably apologize to some of the above commentators for NOT giving them the recommended Red Card as a result of making provocative and potentially disruptive statements: Uwe, Clay and Michael. You too, Dave, should deserve a Card for suggesting that anyone is being treated like an idiot.

By not doing this and instead responding with my own position, I may have received and might still yet receive some Red Flags in return. I've yet to be banned for any period of time, but I suppose it may happen. It's a risk, speaking plainly in this forum. Other forums, not so much. One of my favorite reviewers, calandale, has mostly removed himself from this forum and chosen another because he has found attitudes to be overly sensitive towards critical, insightful, and direct commentary. Check around, his videos can be found above regarding this game and check out his profile.

as always, enjoy the game

 
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Dave
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At the risk of receiving a red card, I would say that Advance After Combat gentlemen do not give red cards. Ever. We also don't subtly say who should deserve them. Instead I just ordered Armenian food between posts. So you're barking up the wrong tree there. But we're not done with this thread.

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Marc Hanna
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boyinblue1 wrote:
At the risk of receiving a red card, I would say that Advance After Combat gentleman do not give red cards. Ever. We also don't subtly say who should deserve them. Instead I just ordered Armenian food between posts. So you're barking up the wrong tree there. But we're not done with this thread.



You were and never will be at risk of getting a red card from me enjoy your dinner!
 
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Has there actually been a definitive answer to the OP questions?

Other than "read the rulebook" which, while theoretically the ultimate definitive answer to every rules question in every game, would not seem particularly helpful.
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Uwe A. Redjac
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rexgator wrote:
Has there actually been a definitive answer to the OP questions? Other than "read the rulebook" which, while theoretically the ultimate definitive answer to every rules question in every game, would not seem particularly helpful.

Yes, been answered (see my post above).

None of his three ideas are correct, answer remains 'no' to all of them. I also pointed out the underlying pattern of where he goes wrong. Also provided a direct quote of the rule he needs to keep in mind. Answer is definitive and not much more one can do to cover a rule questions.

My follow up question where he got his ideas from has also been covered. He said he imagined them (which is properly matched by the rule I quoted). He said thank you, I said you are welcome so I my work here was done.

 
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claystone wrote:
Hey Fellas,

So the Civil War ended in Spain with the Nationalist in control. My question is,

1. Is Spain now a German Allie?
2. If Not allied with Germany are they instead influence by Axis?
3. Does Units from Spain come on the map or only when they become "Active"?


Thanks

1. So what does happen to Spain at the end of the war?
2. Is there a rule referencing this not being the case.?
3. If the answer is no, is that to both parts of the question or just the first part.
Asking for clarification of the three no's provided.

 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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hipshot wrote:
1. So what does happen to Spain at the end of the war?

Check (15.4) Civil War Defeat and (15.5) Civil War Victory. Those are the two events which flip-flop the Civil War markers (14.9) until all six of them either show their Nationalist or their Republican sides.

Quote:
15.4 Civil War Defeat / 15.5 Civil War Victory
...
If all Center and Stronghold markers in a Civil War Country are now on their Nationalist [Republican] sides, remove all Civil War markers from the game [except the Republican Stronghold and Republican Support markers]. The Axis faction [Allied faction named on the Republican Support marker] may then select an Area Table and roll on it. If the result is a Neutral Country, apply Influence (15.19) to it. The Civil War is no longer in effect.

And that is all. Civil War is over and the winning side perhaps gets a little political windfall in an Area of its choice. Take note the Republican Support marker stays on the map in case the Republicans win.


hipshot wrote:
2. Is there a rule referencing this not being the case?

Yes. Under 'How to Read the Rules'. Page 3, first page after the Table of Contents. Printed bold for emphasis. Preface by "Please don’t ignore this section" for more emphasis.

Quote:
How to Read the Rules
...
While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule than is stated in it.

What you will not find under 15.4 or 15.5 is some list of things to not do. Such a list would be endless.


hipshot wrote:
3. If the answer is no, is that to both parts of the question or just the first part.

Answer remains 'no' to all three of them, no changes since my initial reply.

 
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Erik Eefting
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claystone wrote:
Hey Fellas,

So the Civil War ended in Spain with the Nationalist in control. My question is,

1. Is Spain now a German Allie?
2. If Not allied with Germany are they instead influence by Axis?
3. Does Units from Spain come on the map or only when they become "Active"?


Thanks


Hello Clay,

As the Axis player you win the civil war, but Spain stays neutral.
So why do you want to win that war?
When I started to play this game I had the same question.
Why bother? What do I win?

But after reading and rereading the rulebook several times I found the answer in section 0.1.1 Current Strategic Value.
It says: "If an Axis Strategic Hex is under Allied control due to the Republican Stronghold marker, refer to the Republican Support marker to see whether the Civil War Country is a Western Minor Country or a Soviet Minor Country."

If Spain is neutral, there is a Soviet Republican Support marker in Madrid, and the Soviet Union is at war with Germany, the Soviet Union earns a victory point.
As the Axis player you want that Republican Stronghold marker to be removed.

I hope this wil help.

Erik

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