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Robert Norse
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At one point do you draw a leader for sharing? After completing the entire dogma, or after the first or second paragraph?

Can you Endorse an artifact when it's on (your) display?

If you meld a city that has a splay symbol, which creates the draw of a City and are also melding it over a card of higher or equal value creating an artifact, which draw comes first?

If sharing a dogma results in that card disappearing from your board, do you complete the dogma by doing it yourself even though the card is gone?

Thanks in advance for the help. Really pleased with the expansions and the mix-the-cards together suggestions.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Robertnorse wrote:
At one point do you draw a leader for sharing? After completing the entire dogma, or after the first or second paragraph?

It's the very last thing you do. You share each effect before doing it yourself and then, after all the effects have been executed, if anybody shared in a way that had an effect on the game state, you get your free Draw action (which is a Figure if you have it in play).

Quote:
Can you Endorse an artifact when it's on (your) display?

No. The rules for the displayed card (p16) say "A card on display is not part of your board or hand, and cannot be affected at all by any effects."

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If you meld a city that has a splay symbol, which creates the draw of a City and are also melding it over a card of higher or equal value creating an artifact, which draw comes first?

I believe you decide. In any case, I don't think it ever matters, as the Artifact is being dug up, not drawn. Do you have a case where the order would matter?

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If sharing a dogma results in that card disappearing from your board, do you complete the dogma by doing it yourself even though the card is gone?

Yes, you always complete the entire Dogma action on the card, even if the card gets scored, transferred, covered or whatever else in the middle of the Dogma action.
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Carl Chudyk
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The extra draws earned from a Meld action as described on Page 7 of the Deluxe rulebook should be done in the CAEF order displayed there, that is first Cities, then Artifacts, Echoes, and Figures draws, if you think it matters.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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cchudyk wrote:
The extra draws earned from a Meld action as described on Page 7 of the Deluxe rulebook should be done in the CAEF order displayed there, that is first Cities, then Artifacts, Echoes, and Figures draws, if you think it matters.

Ooh, a new rule!Edit: See below to see why it was not so new...

This rule actually does make order important if I'm reading correctly.

If I understand it correctly, the order of operations after a Meld with all expansions in play is thus:

Edit: I have fixed this list to match the real order as I had made a misassumption.

1: Meld the card.
2: If the melded card was a City, activate its City Icons.
3: Draw a City if the melded card was a new colour.
4: Dig up an artifact if appropriate.
5: You may promote a card from your Forecast if appropriate.
6: Activate any Figures that trigger off melding.

And this actually does show why order actually can be important. In the case of melding a City that has a Search and/or Plus icon, you could deplete the base deck of an Age before the Artifact gets dug up, which might change the value of the Artifact that would be drawn!
 
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Carl Chudyk
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On Page 13 under Action Triggers the order for Meld action effects is listed as

1) Execute a City Icon's effect.
2) Draw a City.
3) Dig an Artifact, and place it on display.
4) Promote a foreshadowed card.
5) Execute a figure's "When" karma effect.

which is also CAEF order, but the City icon effect occurs before the City draw, for the same reason you mention Jorgen. A base deck age could be depleted by the icon effect.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Oops, I had forgotten that section was in the rules, thanks again for the heads up. I also forgot Figures could have 'when melded' effects.

The box on Page 7 actually implies the icons go after the City draw, which is why I put them in that order, but the rules on page 13 are of course much clearer.
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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cchudyk wrote:
On Page 13 under Action Triggers the order for Meld action effects is listed as

1) Execute a City Icon's effect.
2) Draw a City.
3) Dig an Artifact, and place it on display.
4) Promote a foreshadowed card.
5) Execute a figure's "When" karma effect.

which is also CAEF order, but the City icon effect occurs before the City draw, for the same reason you mention Jorgen. A base deck age could be depleted by the icon effect.

Wait a minute, either I missed something a long time or is it a change or misunerstanding.

So I really not understand why 4a,4b,4c is before 5).
1) Execute a City Icon's effect.
2) Draw a City.
3) Dig an Artifact, and place it on display.
4) Promote a foreshadowed card.
4A) you may meld a cast from forecast (which possibly can have own Karma "when you meld" trigger - figures are rare in Forecast, but can be tranfered there by 2 or 3 effects)
4B) If 4a) you may take dogma action on the card from fore cast
4C) If there was sharing in 4B) you a draw for sharing
5) Execute a figure's "When" karma effect.

I was able to find only the http://asmadigames.com/rules/InnoDeluxeRules_Proof.pdf with
Innovation deluxe maunal - proof version wrote:
“When” karma effects begin with “When you meld this card,” Follow
the instructions immediately when the Figure is melded.


I didn't find anything about triggersafter meld action besides a sidebar on page 7 where desription of Meld is
Innovation deluxe maunal - proof version wrote:

CITIES OF DESTINY
If you created a new color on your board with the Meld Action,
draw a City of value equal to your highest top card.
ARTIFACTS OF HISTORY
After your Meld Action, dig up an artifact and place it on display
if either of the following is true:
(1) The melded card is equal to or lower than the card that it
covered up.
(2) The hexagonal card image on the melded card is in the same
location as on the card that it covered up (ignoring splays).

ECHOES OF THE PAST
After a Meld Action, you may promote one card from your
forecast, as long as the forecast card is equal to or lower than
the melded card. To promote the card, meld it, and then you
may take a free Dogma action, targeting the promoted card.

FIGURES IN THE SAND
After your Achieve Action, each opponent will draw a Figure
equal to their highest top card.

Figures in the Sand section clearly references Achieve action (which is on the same page).

If I remember correctly, always when I was playing with Figures I did Forecast trigger last - followed only by fading Figures.
And IMMEDIATELY in "“When” karma effects begin with “When you meld this card,” Follow the instructions immediately when the Figure is melded. "
I understood as before 2) Draw a City.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The list that Carl quoted is on page 13 of the rulebook, it was something that was added after the proof.

Note that on your note on 4A, it would cause a complete other set of Meld effects that would interrupt the first. Fortunately, most of them wouldn't trigger, as they only trigger on Meld actions. In fact, the when melded effect would be the only thing. So if you managed to Foreshadow a Figure that includes a "when" effect, as a result of Melding a Figure with an action, the order would be:

0) Meld Figure-1
1) Nothing (no City Icons on a Figure)
2) Draw City if this was a new stack
3) Dig Artifact if you covered an appropriate card
4-A) Promote Figure-2 from Forecast
4-B) Go through 5 steps, but only valid one is activating the "when" effect of Figure-2
4-C) Dogma the stack with the Figure if you want (for Echo effects)
5) Activate the "when" effect of Figure-1
6) Potentially fade one of the Figures, unless something got covered.

Yes, it's a little confusing, especially given that Figure-2 is played afterwards, but its effect triggers first, but it does follow the CAEF rule.

Personally, I'd prefer a CAFE order. Only step 4 can generate a new Meld, so it makes more sense for it to be last (and it would eliminate the weird 2 before 1 issue above). Plus, CAFE is easier to remember than CAEF, of course.

But the rules are CAEF and they do work, they are just weird. We should play it that way unless Carl decides to change things to affect this rather weird corner case.
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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Clipper wrote:
The list that Carl quoted is on page 13 of the rulebook, it was something that was added after the proof.

Note that on your note on 4A, it would cause a complete other set of Meld effects that would interrupt the first. Fortunately, most of them wouldn't trigger, as they only trigger on Meld actions. In fact, the when melded effect would be the only thing. So if you managed to Foreshadow a Figure that includes a "when" effect, as a result of Melding a Figure with an action, the order would be:

0) Meld Figure-1
1) Nothing (no City Icons on a Figure)
2) Draw City if this was a new stack
3) Dig Artifact if you covered an appropriate card
4-A) Promote Figure-2 from Forecast
4-B) Go through 5 steps, but only valid one is activating the "when" effect of Figure-2
4-C) Dogma the stack with the Figure if you want (for Echo effects)
5) Activate the "when" effect of Figure-1
6) Potentially fade one of the Figures, unless something got covered.

Yes, it's a little confusing, especially given that Figure-2 is played afterwards, but its effect triggers first, but it does follow the CAEF rule.

Personally, I'd prefer a CAFE order. Only step 4 can generate a new Meld, so it makes more sense for it to be last (and it would eliminate the weird 2 before 1 issue above). Plus, CAFE is easier to remember than CAEF, of course.

But the rules are CAEF and they do work, they are just weird.


4a) -I don't know if it is complete trigger list - some of the mentioned triggers (city draw, city icons, foreshadow) only trigger on meld ACTION - but figures Karma don't fall into such exception.

I see FCAE as an order that fils the word "immediately" in Karma rules

But otherwise CAFE is preferred to anything
https://bgg.cc/microbadge/22997

And FACE is also easy to remeber

Quote:
We should play it that way unless Carl decides to change things to affect this rather weird corner case.

I have only old edition and Beta/prototypes now - final rules are unpublished so FCAE is rules for me now. This may change when I'll get the Deluxe Edition.
 
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