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Subject: Games with Objective-based victory condition rss

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Ian Kissell
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I really like games that have objectives for victory conditions. An example would be the star system in Scythe where players are presented with a number of ways to drop stars, and players get to choose which to pursue. To be clear, I'm specifically talking about games with multiple objectives and you win by accomplishing a number of them, not games that you win by accomplishing a single objective (like kill all opponents or get to 20 points).

I know that Sid Meier's Civilization: A New Dawn and TI4 (and in some ways Star Wars: Rebellion) from FFG have this system, and I like the mix of public and private goals in TI4. Are there other games that have a similar victory system?

EDIT: Also remembered that Wasteland Express Delivery Service is a good example.
 
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Harald Torvatn
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Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points, in which way is that different from other victory point based games?
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Ian Kissell
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Harald wrote:
Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points, in which way is that different from other victory point based games?


Because there is a difference between the game ending when someone completes a certain number of victory points versus the game ending after a certain number of rounds.

Also, objective based systems, especially when the objectives change each game, direct the course of play differently then victory point based games.
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Joshua Jones
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Harald wrote:
Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points


This is incorrect. Scythe is a game which ends when one person accomplishes 6 objectives, at which point victory points are tallied.
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John M
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Discworld: Ankh-Morpork has hidden objectives for all players. The game ends when a player (whose character identity is hidden) meets his objective.
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Ryan Keane
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This is a pretty general question. I would argue pretty much all games have objective-based victory conditions, as getting the most points is still an objective.

The objectives can be quantitative (this would include all games where you need the most points or money, but also those where you need 5 fortresses or 6 areas or whatever) or qualitative (you win when you meet goal X and X is not an amount of something). You could have a combination, for example where you have to meet 3 out of 4 qualitative goals to win.

The objectives can be symmetric (each player is trying to do the same thing to win) or asymmetric (different players have different win conditions).

The objectives can be open or hidden (players don't know what other players need to do to win, which necessarily has to be asymmetric).

The objectives can trigger end-game (as soon as a player meets a preset goal or quantity, the game ends) or not. Related to this, quantitative objectives can be threshold-based (meeting the threshold ends the games) or "competitive" (when the game ends based on other conditions, the player with the highest objectives wins). You can have hidden competitive objectives, where you only win if you exceed other players for your hidden objective, but other players can't win off your objective.

An example of a multiplayer game with hidden asymmetric quantitative and qualitative objectives that trigger end game, about the farthest you can get from traditional "most points" games, might be something like Discworld: Ankh-Morpork. You don't know exactly what players need to do to win, and as soon as a player has met their win condition at the start of their turn, the game ends. The game can end when the deck runs out or Riots occur and no one's met their win condition, in which case you do score VP's like a traditional game, but IMEX that rarely happens.

Illuminati and various wargames have asymmetric qualitative objectives that trigger end game.

Here's a couple old threads where we touched on related points.
https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/27555/game-format-competi...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/875857/multiple-winners-non...
 
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Ian Kissell
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I don't think it is general out all. It is very clear from the post that I am not looking for an "objective" of get the most points or eliminate all other players. I'm looking for games where there are multiple objectives of specific situations and you win by accomplishing multiples of them. I'd especially love if there were a mix of public and private objectives.

I feel that this is being over-complicated in the name of being pedantic. I'm just looking for other examples of games with a feature that I find interesting.
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Ian Kissell
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Homeless105 wrote:
Discworld: Ankh-Morpork has hidden objectives for all players. The game ends when a player (whose character identity is hidden) meets his objective.


That's an interesting suggestion. I haven't looked at the game for a while since it is hard to find.

Mainly what I like about systems like this is the objectives you get force you to play differently. I'd prefer having to achieve multiple objectives, but it is still something I'll look into.
 
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Ryan Keane
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Ok, then I would suggest checking out these, which all have private objectives to some degree:
Suburbia
Castles of Mad King Ludwig
Lords of Waterdeep
Mission Red Planet
Clans
Sagrada
Crayon Rail games
Troyes
Transamerica
Careers
Railways of the World
Strasbourg
Container
Tiki Topple
Lords of Xidit
Metropolys
The Voyages of Marco Polo
Masons
Alea Iacta Est

I hope that helps. In most of these you win by completing the most objectives that in total give you the most points or money. I can't think of any game that combines public and private objectives without combining them into points or money.
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Ian Kissell
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Yeah, I saw those on the other thread which apparently was posted at the same time.

None of those are really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for systems like the Rebels in SW: Rebellion or in Twilight Imperium. I'm not just looking for a game where you can get some bonus points from an objective.

Sagrada is somewhat close I suppose.
 
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Derry Salewski
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Runewars?

Archipelago?

Battlestar Galactica?

1805 sea of glory.

Argent the consortium?

Clash of cultures.

Merchants and Marauders

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Ian Kissell
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scifiantihero wrote:
Runewars?

Archipelago?

Battlestar Galactica?

1805 sea of glory.

Argent the consortium?

Clash of cultures.

Merchants and Marauders



I've always wanted to try Runewars, but I don't get it as a suggestion. Don't you win the game by controlling the most territory at the end of 7 rounds? Am I missing something about how the game is played.

 
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Derry Salewski
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KissellMissile wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Runewars?

Archipelago?

Battlestar Galactica?

1805 sea of glory.

Argent the consortium?

Clash of cultures.

Merchants and Marauders



I've always wanted to try Runewars, but I don't get it as a suggestion. Don't you win the game by controlling the most territory at the end of 7 rounds? Am I missing something about how the game is played.



Those are all games I own. Question marks are ones I haven't played so am not guaranteeing.

It's been years since I read the runewars rules. I thought I remembered that you got points for runes or something and there were various ways to get them like quests or area control.
 
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Georg Wolgast
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Great question with some pretty bad answers. The only game I can think of would be Inis, which has 3 victory conditions of which you have to complete 1 or more to win.
 
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Quantum Jack
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Xia: Legends of a Drift System

Objective: gain a set number of fame points.

Many ways to gain fame points. Trade, exploration, combat, rolling natural 20.
 
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Ian Kissell
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Quantum_Jack wrote:
Xia: Legends of a Drift System

Objective: gain a set number of fame points.

Many ways to gain fame points. Trade, exploration, combat, rolling natural 20.


A good game I keep toying with getting.

Again, not what I am asking about. Actually, I think I would like it even better if the whole game were the missions. However, as I've stated, I am not looking for an objective of get a certain number of points.
 
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Ian Kissell
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GeorgW wrote:
Great question with some pretty bad answers. The only game I can think of would be Inis, which has 3 victory conditions of which you have to complete 1 or more to win.


It appears that the answer to the question is that more companies not named FFG need to use this victory condition.
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marc lecours
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Captain N wrote:
Harald wrote:
Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points


This is incorrect. Scythe is a game which ends when one person accomplishes 6 objectives, at which point victory points are tallied.


This is correct but in a way Harald is correct also.

In Scythe all the points are public knowledge. At the moment of getting your 6th objective, it is possible to know if you are in the lead or not. If all the players are trying to win (and finishing in 2nd place has no meaning) then no good player will complete their 6th objective unless it leads to their win.

In practice most players are not playing at that level. They will end the game just because they can, even though it is a bad move and loses them the game. Or they end the game because they have no chance and just want to end the game. But if all the players are experts, then the only player who should end the game is the player that will win in doing so.
 
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Ian Kissell
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rubberchicken wrote:
Captain N wrote:
Harald wrote:
Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points


This is incorrect. Scythe is a game which ends when one person accomplishes 6 objectives, at which point victory points are tallied.


This is correct but in a way Harald is correct also.

In Scythe all the points are public knowledge. At the moment of getting your 6th objective, it is possible to know if you are in the lead or not. If all the players are trying to win (and finishing in 2nd place has no meaning) then no good player will complete their 6th objective unless it leads to their win.

In practice most players are not playing at that level. They will end the game just because they can, even though it is a bad move and loses them the game. Or they end the game because they have no chance and just want to end the game. But if all the players are experts, then the only player who should end the game is the player that will win in doing so.


Well, maybe. I consider myself an excellent Scythe player. However, I find calculating all of the points to see if I am ahead when I make a move to drop the final star obnoxious. I have lost that way once (by 2 points), but to be honest, I would rather lose then take 5 minutes to make a final calculation of everyone's score. Not because I can't (I happen to be good at mental math), but because I think it is kind of lame. I am sure many would disagree, but that is how I roll.

Anyways, back to the regularly scheduled programming.
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Jason Kelly
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Sounds like Dead of Winter. Very basic of what you are asking but has secret missions
 
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Mike
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Kingdom Builder might be an example of what the OP is looking for. The end condition for the game is when one player places all his buildings. But placing all your buildings does not produce a victory. Instead, each game has three goal cards and players score points based on how well they succeeded in meeting these goals. The conditions for the goals usually don't overlap much so each player has to decide how much effort they should devote towards each goal.
 
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Martin Larouche
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KissellMissile wrote:
Harald wrote:
Scyte is a game which you win by getting 6 victory points, in which way is that different from other victory point based games?


Because there is a difference between the game ending when someone completes a certain number of victory points versus the game ending after a certain number of rounds.

Also, objective based systems, especially when the objectives change each game, direct the course of play differently then victory point based games.


To my knowledge, there are only 3 types of victory conditions in all of gaming:

1) Last man standing: be the last player left (Monopoly, Risk, Chess).

2) Scoring: most amount of points (or less amount of points) after a set period of rounds/time. (Caylus, Agricola, etc.)

3) Race games: achieve an objective before other players. Scythe falls under this category. It's really just a race game at it's core. Be the first to achieve an objective... In this case, the one objective is to be the first to a certain amount of points, and each point is scored by getting a sub-objective if you will.
Other games in this genre includes obvious race games like Roborally, Formula D and Pandemic (race for cures before the game reach it's own finish line/goal), but also all games where the goal is to be the first to a set of points. Mechanically, there is little difference between crossing a number of spaces to a finish line goal and getting a bunch of points to an amount goal. A race track is, in other words, just a disguised scoring track.

How to get that victory condition for all three of those categories will change from game to game, and a game might also include a method that changes the way to get to the game's objective from one play to the next, but it has nothing to do with the goal of the game, which won't change.

With that in mind, games which can vary the gameplay for how to reach the victory condition are very numerous...
Twilight Imperium 3 (and 4) is an obvious one.
... but if you think about it, games like Century Spice Road is also one. Your goal is to get points before the end of the game, but the conditions to get those points will change every game as the cards won't be the same and won't require the same cubes. The trade cards won't be the same too, requiring you to adjust your engine each game.

... and then thinking about it more... this is really just an expression of "replayability" in games: to change the setup of the game so that it's different every time, requiring you to take differents paths each time.

Taking this into account, half the games out there and more would fit your "objectives that change each game" criteria.
- Terra Mystica: best way to score points depends on your given race at the beginning.
- Star Wars Rebellion: the objective cards turn up in a different order each game.
- Descent: change the map setup.
- Ticket to Ride: different objective/ticket cards drawn each game.
- Pandemic: cards won't turn up the same way each game.
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Darren Smith
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scifiantihero wrote:
Runewars?

Archipelago?

Battlestar Galactica?

1805 sea of glory.

Argent the consortium?

Clash of cultures.

Merchants and Marauders



Good call on Archipelago, where each player only knows one victory point requirement and one end game condition. You have to try to follow what the other players are doing.
 
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Ian Kissell
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I don't strictly speaking disagree with your analysis, and I'm happy to talk game philosophy, but I am thinking here in more concrete terms.

You are correct that I am looking for a race game. I am not looking for a game which has objectives that score you points along with other things, such as Terra Mystica. What I am interested are games where you are racing to fulfill certain requirements (objectives) before others.

You are correct that this is very similar to contract fulfillment games such as Century Spice Road. I suppose the difference is in those (TTR too), you are doing the same thing with slight variations, whereas the objectives in Wasteland Express Delivery Service are very different.

I suppose in this case I am not really looking to be clever. It is a mechanic that I have been liking recently, and I want to find other games that use it. I'm not wanting to find ones only tangentially related.

Archipelago is nice, but I see it differently. How the game will score is hidden, but I don't really see it the same as "accomplish these things and compete the objective." It is a good game that I really want a second edition of though.
 
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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Tribune: Primus Inter Pares is exactly what you're looking for, where there is a rubric of about seven distinct objective (varies by player count) and you win when you accomplish about four of them.

Somewhat further afield, there's Argent: The Consortium, where there are twelve objectives that can score a point, generally of the form of having the most of some categories of items, with most of them being secret at the start of the game, and you can take actions to find out what they are or just take a gamble on a given one being in the game, and at the end of the game they are all turned up and whoever has the majority of them wins.
 
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