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Subject: North Korea accuses US of declaring war rss

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41391978

https://www.yahoo.com/news/north-korea-accuses-u-declaring-w...

So, apparently, according to North Korea, we're currently in a state or war, declared by the US and because of this, can attack US warplanes on patrol (as a show of force, according to the US administration) outside of their airspace.

I'd ask who's going to blink first, but I'm at the point where I think both the Dotard and the Rocket Man have cut off their eyelids.
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I might be slightly more concerned if they actually had the capability to shoot down any aircraft.

As it is, just more of the same: bluster and dickwaving from both "leaders".
 
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I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.
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Wendell
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Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
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TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


No, that's accurate. There was a ceasefire to end the war but no formal treaty.

This is really worrying me. Gods help us, but we need to rely on fucking KIM to show restraint, because I don't see any signs that TRUMP will.
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Well, Trump can't start a war, but he can continue one. I wonder if the people who elected him realized that?
 
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TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


That's why the correct path of action is a formal peace declaration with NK. That we've gone decades without this is a travesty. The only way NK can change their current course of action is to be given a way in which they can save face. A peace treaty gives them that and opens a path to rejoining the world community.

Not that I expect the right thing to be done by this administration, but the fact that it hasn't been offered by previous administrations* is where the shortcoming resides. Two decades ago, a peace treaty keeps NK from pursuing nukes. I only hope that a treaty in the future can still stave this off.





* Did I just pull off a simultaneous "BUT OBAMA!!!!" and "BUT DUBYA!!!!"? Hellz yeah I did!
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Talmanes wrote:
I might be slightly more concerned if they actually had the capability to shoot down any aircraft.


And that's exactly the view the Americans in particular have taken in every conflict: WW2, Korea, Vietnam and discovered it's been, let's be diplomatic, optimistic. The North Koreans have Russian and home developed surface to air missiles. Good enough to shoot down US planes? I don't know. I suspect while they have a much better clue than I do, the Pentagon would like to know for sure. But it only takes one hit, lucky or otherwise, to escalate to another level.
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TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


Except of course you never officially started the war either. It was an action on behalf of the UN technically.
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Dearlove wrote:
Talmanes wrote:
I might be slightly more concerned if they actually had the capability to shoot down any aircraft.


And that's exactly the view the Americans in particular have taken in every conflict: WW2, Korea, Vietnam and discovered its been, let's be diplomatic, optimistic. The North Koreans have Russian and home developed surface to air missiles. Good enough to shoot down US planes? I don't know. I suspect while they have a much better clue than I do, the Pentagon would like to know for sure. But it only takes one hit, lucky or otherwise, to escalate to another level.

Quick googling shows that North Korea has a pretty capable air defence system including a pretty good indigenous missile system. It will certianly be good enough to protect artillery until several S, Korean cities are flattened.
 
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wifwendell wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


No, that's accurate. There was a ceasefire to end the war but no formal treaty.

This is really worrying me. Gods help us, but we need to rely on fucking KIM to show restraint, because I don't see any signs that TRUMP will.


NK won't stop until a bomb has hit the US, or they are literally prevented from doing so.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


The USA has not formally declared war since 1942.
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quozl wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
I thought we have been in a declared state of war with them for decades and just have an extended cease fire. Maybe that is urban legend.


The USA has not formally declared war since 1942.


Tell that to Rocket Man.
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GameCrossing wrote:

...

* Did I just pull off a simultaneous "BUT OBAMA!!!!" and "BUT DUBYA!!!!"? Hellz yeah I did!




I would have given the maneuver a 9.5 but you skipped over bush sr, clinton, reagan,carter, ford,nixon, my johnson, kennedy, and Dwight. D. Eisenhower.



 
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maxo-texas wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:

...

* Did I just pull off a simultaneous "BUT OBAMA!!!!" and "BUT DUBYA!!!!"? Hellz yeah I did!



I would have given the maneuver a 9.5 but you skipped over bush sr, clinton, reagan,carter, ford,nixon, my johnson, kennedy, and Dwight. D. Eisenhower.



Oh yeah, because "BUT FORD!!!" was such a big thing.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Oh yeah, because "BUT FORD!!!" was such a big thing.


http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/cast/chevy-chase-1544...
 
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Didn't we get some "BUT FORD!" when Clinton or Obama pardoned some folks?
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This is a classic example of why constant bluff and blather can come back to bite people if they are either in long-term relationship negotiations or if their dealings are public.

North Korea knows we can blow them up but they also know that we currently have no option to blow them up that doesn't result in a catastrophic toll on South Korea, Japan, and likely elsewhere. They know that only a lunatic would be likely to attack them.

Trump is presenting himself as the equivalent of a lunatic. I don't even mean that in an insulting way -- he's basically making lots of statements that make it hard for him to back down, and this is a pretty classic tactic for people who are engaged in this type of approach. It's the rhetorical equivalent of throwing your steering wheel out the window in a game of chicken.

The problem is that Trump has been caught bluffing over and over. He's always going to sue but rarely does. He threatens Mexico and now they aren't even nervous about him. So even as he ratchets up the rhetoric and literally threatens to kill 25 million people it's likely that the NK regime just looks for a new way to provoke him and make him look impotent. A sea test of a nuke would be one option and shooting down a plane would be another.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
This is a classic example of why constant bluff and blather can come back to bite people if they are either in long-term relationship negotiations or if their dealings are public.

North Korea knows we can blow them up but they also know that we currently have no option to blow them up that doesn't result in a catastrophic toll on South Korea, Japan, and likely elsewhere. They know that only a lunatic would be likely to attack them.

Trump is presenting himself as the equivalent of a lunatic. I don't even mean that in an insulting way -- he's basically making lots of statements that make it hard for him to back down, and this is a pretty classic tactic for people who are engaged in this type of approach. It's the rhetorical equivalent of throwing your steering wheel out the window in a game of chicken.

The problem is that Trump has been caught bluffing over and over. He's always going to sue but rarely does. He threatens Mexico and now they aren't even nervous about him. So even as he ratchets up the rhetoric and literally threatens to kill 25 million people it's likely that the NK regime just looks for a new way to provoke him and make him look impotent. A sea test of a nuke would be one option and shooting down a plane would be another.


All the while dramatically heightening the risk of:

- an accident
- a response, as a result of either an accident or an intentional act, to save face against looking impotent

A sea test of a nuclear weapon would, I think, actually be very counterproductive for the North Korean regime. Actually exploding an H-bomb in the ocean (and perhaps this is wishful thinking) would unite the world against North Korea in perhaps unforeseen ways - such that I think even countries previously content to watch the United States flailing, like China and Russia, would be goaded into action.

Shooting down a bomber, though, could be another test.
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Trump just needs to come out and put a red line down on Rocket Man. It worked for Syria.
 
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Chad_Ellis wrote:

The problem is that Trump has been caught bluffing over and over. He's always going to sue but rarely does. He threatens Mexico and now they aren't even nervous about him. So even as he ratchets up the rhetoric and literally threatens to kill 25 million people it's likely that the NK regime just looks for a new way to provoke him and make him look impotent. A sea test of a nuke would be one option and shooting down a plane would be another.


The North Korean foreign minister can say what he likes, and it doesn't mean a whole lot. But if he actually starts shooting at Americans or starts polluting the ocean with large amounts of radioactivity, there should be and will be an American military response.

The North Korean foreign minister claiming that the US has already declared war on North Korea does not make it true.
 
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MikePustilnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

The problem is that Trump has been caught bluffing over and over. He's always going to sue but rarely does. He threatens Mexico and now they aren't even nervous about him. So even as he ratchets up the rhetoric and literally threatens to kill 25 million people it's likely that the NK regime just looks for a new way to provoke him and make him look impotent. A sea test of a nuke would be one option and shooting down a plane would be another.


The North Korean foreign minister can say what he likes, and it doesn't mean a whole lot. But if he actually starts shooting at Americans or starts polluting the ocean with large amounts of radioactivity, there should be and will be an American military response.

The North Korean foreign minister claiming that the US has already declared war on North Korea does not make it true.


It puts the PRC in an odd space. They really don't want a war with the US, but they really really REALLY don't want a unified US-aligned Korea on their border either, and if there was a war, NK would almost inevitably lose.

Do they escalate, risk losing their buffer, or engineer a coup at the last moment?

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windsagio wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:

The North Korean foreign minister can say what he likes, and it doesn't mean a whole lot. But if he actually starts shooting at Americans or starts polluting the ocean with large amounts of radioactivity, there should be and will be an American military response.

The North Korean foreign minister claiming that the US has already declared war on North Korea does not make it true.


It puts the PRC in an odd space. They really don't want a war with the US, but they really really REALLY don't want a unified US-aligned Korea on their border either, and if there was a war, NK would almost inevitably lose.

Do they escalate, risk losing their buffer, or engineer a coup at the last moment?


They have a third option that is less risky. They can privately pressure North Korea to back down, using their trade and aid as leverage. I suspect that this is what they will do.
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MikePustilnik wrote:
windsagio wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:

The North Korean foreign minister can say what he likes, and it doesn't mean a whole lot. But if he actually starts shooting at Americans or starts polluting the ocean with large amounts of radioactivity, there should be and will be an American military response.

The North Korean foreign minister claiming that the US has already declared war on North Korea does not make it true.


It puts the PRC in an odd space. They really don't want a war with the US, but they really really REALLY don't want a unified US-aligned Korea on their border either, and if there was a war, NK would almost inevitably lose.

Do they escalate, risk losing their buffer, or engineer a coup at the last moment?


They have a third option that is less risky. They can privately pressure North Korea to back down, using their trade and aid as leverage. I suspect that this is what they will do.


People keep on expecting China to be able to make NK behave as if by magic.

That hasn't worked and people have been calling for this for like 30 years. China has no magic bullet to make NK behave.

Edit: one thing China did recently that IS probably more effective was make it clear that if NK launched an attack, China wouldn't do anything. But if NK was attacked first, they'd defend them.
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matthean wrote:
NK won't stop until a bomb has hit the US, or they are literally prevented from doing so.

I don't really think that is true. I suspect he is more rational than the US media gives him credit for. He won't commit suicide until he is on the edge of death anyway.

Also, he knows what side his bread is buttered on. His missiles never fly to the west.
 
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wifwendell wrote:

People keep on expecting China to be able to make NK behave as if by magic.

That hasn't worked and people have been calling for this for like 30 years. China has no magic bullet to make NK behave.



True, but the reason it hasn't worked might be that the Chinese didn't really try very hard. The current crisis might motivate them to intensify the pressure. Privately, so neither China nor North Korea loses face.

wifwendell wrote:

Edit: one thing China did recently that IS probably more effective was make it clear that if NK launched an attack, China wouldn't do anything. But if NK was attacked first, they'd defend them.


I agree. China did make it clear that if North Korea attacked first, then North Korea is on its own. I believe that North Korea carrying out the threat made by its foreign minister would fit into this category.
 
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