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Subject: Shuttle and Deadalus fix without modification of cards rss

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Pawel Garycki
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Shuttle:
"For Reentry, draw outcome card now means drawing from the bank (Outcome pile), not from the Reentry technology, however read the result as if from Reentry.
Player may elect to declare refurbishment, which results in drawing from Reentry technology instead of from the bank, however make the result one step worse and put a time token on the Shuttle after the maneuver."

Deadalus:
"Player may elect to declare recycling of small fuel tank before use. If so, draw an outcome from the bank instead of drawing from the Shuttle technology but read the output from the Shuttle technology. Make the result one step better, treating Success as additionally recycling the used small tank for further use."

Benefits:
Shuttle now has two options for reentry. One always posing a risk, and one grounding a damaged Shuttle for a year. For Mars and Venus, you have either a safe one-way trip (unless a mechanic will fix it with spare parts) or a risky entry.
Deadalus, if using recycling, has now 2.5 times more longevity of its small tank, making it more Ion Thruster-like. However this option comes with a risk of damaging the Deadalus rocket, but remember a martian mechanic can fix this if it happens nearby. On Mars the recycling option will make fuel generation more profitable on the longer run.
The above solutions do not modify thrust, mass or price of components, especially not requiring any change to rocket performance reference sheets.
 
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Rakaydos Vashini
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I do NOT agree with the "Running on fumes" Daedelus fix. Thematically, you dont ever have a rocket where you "dont know" how much DV it has. Mechanically, having a rocket that always has a 1/6 chance of failure (and a 1/3 chance of ruining any attempt to count on reuse) is not worth the investment you put into the daedelus.

I think the Daedelus is a lost cause a this point. Barring stat changes, it's a 3 mass disposable rocket that fits between Juno and Atlas in power and between Soyuz and Saturn in price. We can polish that turd, but it remains a piece of crap only usable because the tech is free with purchace of shuttle.
 
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Pawel Garycki
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Let's analyze how much reliable is failing Deadalus on its indented location, that is Mars.

Business case: orbital liftoff for sample/component delivery to Ion waiting in Mars Orbit.
In case of major failure(=minor failure), an engineer fixes it with 1 spare part but fuel tank is saved.
In case of minor failure(=success), the rocket comes back to Mars, doing what it was supposed to do (delivering payload to orbit).
Even without a calculation this is still a full gain.

Business case: transport to Mars Cycle (with aerobraking from OP).
In case of major failure(=minor failure) on Mars orbit, Deadalus returns for fix and tries again, leaving small tank on Mars orbit to join and try later.
In case of minor failure(=success) on Mars orbit, Deadalus makes what it was supposed to and returns with aerobrake to whatever the destination.

So failures are mitigated and in fact they turn to usage of spare parts, reducing the average usability from 2.5 to a bit less but still more than 1.

For Earth orbit to Mars transfer the situation is similar, with free repair on Earth. Remember that Deadalus can launch from Earth with 0 payload, based on two small tanks (possibly produced from spare parts).

For the other destinations/locations just use the vanilla Deadalus thrust (no recycling). At least some cheap Deadalus/Ion combos are possible for lunar or even Mercury/Co2-less Mars samples, if we enforce a caption on amount of samples collected at a time (this is a theme for a different topic why to impose such caption - the reason is the exponential Luna 25$ exploit, previously known as infinite supplies, before official partial fix from Lumenaris).

Remember: you can always rely on Deadalus with no-recycling option. Use recycling wherever close to repair stations.

==========

As for not agreeing to this solution: is there any other solution which does not modify rocket performance table? I know you proposed changing the meaning of the damaged small fuel tank and making Deadalus fire twice. This requires change some change of card text but not the table. So far the fix is ok.
What I wanted to achieve with Shuttle/Deadalus fixes was the symmetry of solutions - both drawing from bank, both providing an option, both pretending not to change card text but to provide "additional" explaination or variant of use.
As far as I have seen, the other solutions to Shuttle not changing rocket table were to restrict its use (partially implemented here with the time token), e.g. requiring a pilot or explicitly disallow to leave Earth orbit (why?). Alternate "Draw reentry" (from bank) seemed attractive to base on the solution - and in line with the recycling variant.

I hope the game designer will finally cut these discussions and propose a sensible variant for both Shuttle and Deadalus (possibly reusing some porposed ones), having the last word, otherwise solutions will multiply like mushrooms.
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Joe Fatula
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I'm following this discussion, but I'll wait on proposing any changes without fully testing them.
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Rakaydos Vashini
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buffalohat wrote:
I'm following this discussion, but I'll wait on proposing any changes without fully testing them.

Whatever happened to the Falcon rocket, anyway? I've made hay with my suspicions in another thread, but I wonder how it happened on your side.
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Brent Pollock
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improove wrote:
Shuttle:
"For Reentry, draw outcome card now means drawing from the bank (Outcome pile), not from the Reentry technology, however read the result as if from Reentry.
Player may elect to declare refurbishment, which results in drawing from Reentry technology instead of from the bank, however make the result one step worse and put a time token on the Shuttle after the maneuver."


I like this for its simplicity, but the 1-in-6 Major Failure might be a tad harsh. The other option is to use the game's die and always make the Shuttle roll for landings/re-entry. The Shuttle's historical re-entry Major Failure rate was roughly 1/16, so:
Roll 1d8
5-8 = SUCCESS
2-4 = Minor Failure
1 = REROLL with
1-4 = Major Failure
5-8 = Minor Failure
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Pawel Garycki
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WBRP wrote:
improove wrote:
Shuttle:
"For Reentry, draw outcome card now means drawing from the bank (Outcome pile), not from the Reentry technology, however read the result as if from Reentry.
Player may elect to declare refurbishment, which results in drawing from Reentry technology instead of from the bank, however make the result one step worse and put a time token on the Shuttle after the maneuver."


I like this for its simplicity, but the 1-in-6 Major Failure might be a tad harsh. The other option is to use the game's die and always make the Shuttle roll for landings/re-entry. The Shuttle's historical re-entry Major Failure rate was roughly 1/16, so:
Roll 1d8
5-8 = SUCCESS
2-4 = Minor Failure
1 = REROLL with
1-4 = Major Failure
5-8 = Minor Failure


You can avoid the major failure by just declaring refurbishment. It will likely result in success->minor failure because you will by then clear the Reentry technology. So you are guaranteed safe return at a cost of refurbishment on Earth or repair on Mars/Venus. For orbital return of an empty Shuttle, the risky option is not bad, it simply costs 10*1/6=1.6$ (failure chance 1/6 and Shuttle cost 10$).
Note that requiring to roll a die will make this solution a more severe form of modification of card text. But dice are more convenient and easier to balance on the other hand. If I were to use dice, I would do the following numbers:
SHUTTLE (no Refurbishment option):
1=Major Failure
2/3=Minor Failure
4-8=Success
DEADALUS (recycling option):
1=Minor Failure
2/3=Success
4-8=Recycling
This will give the worst outcomes slightly lower chance at the expense of giving the intermediate outcome slightly higher chance.
 
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Brent Pollock
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I totally skipped your Refurbishment tweak. Sorry to have confused things.
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