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Twilight Imperium: Fourth Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: L1z1x promissory note rss

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Jefferson Lessa
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Quote:
Cybernetic Enhancements - At the start of your turn - Remove 1 token from the L1Z1X player's strategy pool and return it to his reinforcements. Then, place 1 command token from your reinforcements in your strategy pool. Then, return This card to the L1Z1X player.


Both cards do their effect without the cost in this instance.

It is not really a "cost". It is just two effects, and if I cannot do the first, that is fine.
 
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Fred Bennett
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I asked FFG about this for the trade goods cost on the Barony card and that was the response I received as well. If the Baron doesn't have the trade goods to spend, the person with the note still gets the benefit.

I'd think it was the same for the cost of the command token.
 
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Matt Provisor
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Per the timing section of the rules reference.

1.15 If an ability uses the word “then,” a player must resolve the effect that occurs before the word “then” before resolving the effect that occurs after the word “then.”

I would say if there's no counter, you may not do the second part.
 
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Scott Lewis
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MATTPROV3 wrote:
Per the timing section of the rules reference.

1.15 If an ability uses the word “then,” a player must resolve the effect that occurs before the word “then” before resolving the effect that occurs after the word “then.”

I would say if there's no counter, you may not do the second part.

That would be contrary to the ruling Fred got, then. But it could be the ruling was incorrect (it happens sometimes).

However, the section you quote is actually more talking about timing, not resolution, basically saying that the part before "then" comes first, so I don't necessarily think it means "if you can't do the first part, you can't do the second part".
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Matt Provisor
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It could be that the barony ability also uses a different timing or trigger word.
 
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Scott Lewis
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The Letnev promissory note says:

"At the start of a round of space combat: The Letnev player loses 2 trade goods. During this combat round, reroll any number of your dice. Then, return this card to the Letnev player."

So it's worded in pretty much the same general way.
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Matt Provisor
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It could be, since the only response I get from FFG about rules is "it'll be addressed in the FAQ" and not actually given the correct rule. I can only go off of what the rule book specifically states.

But the wording appears to be different. It says barony loses TG. You can refill dice, then return. Since there are two abilities before the timing word, the timing word would only affect the ability directly before the word "then." The l1z1x card says "then" twice, thus indicating each part must be completed.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I sent a question in. In general, I think section 1.7 is probably intended to say that if an ability is separated by "and" OR if it is separated into multiple sentences. I haven't looked through all the stuff to verify, but the ones I looked at have very few abilities that are actually separated by the word "and".
 
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Matt Provisor
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1.7 is for abilities. A promisary note falls under a component, there for the word and doesn't matter and the word then is what needs to be followed.
 
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Matt Provisor
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Nevermind, I withdrawal my arguments until FFG rules on it. There are so many ways to interpret all the little trigger words. Please post their answer as I am now going crazy trying to figure this out.
 
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Scott Lewis
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MATTPROV3 wrote:
1.7 is for abilities. A promisary note falls under a component, there for the word and doesn't matter and the word then is what needs to be followed.

The entirty of section 1 is talking about abilities. It has sub-sections, but 1.1-1.7 are the overall rules that apply to ALL abilities.

Costs, Timing, and Component-Specific Rules don't invalidate the first 7 bullet points.

Basically, if you say 1.7 doesn't apply to promissory notes, then 1.5 doesn't either (when obviously it does). In fact, at the very beginning of the Abilties section it says "cards and faction sheets" - and cards would all fall under "components".
 
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Matt Provisor
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Yeah, I said I withdrawal my arguments. No need to beat a dead horse, geez. I'm sorry I responded to this thread now.
 
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Scott Lewis
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MATTPROV3 wrote:
Yeah, I said I withdrawal my arguments. No need to beat a dead horse, geez. I'm sorry I responded to this thread now.

My apologies. I didn't see your second post, I pressed reply, started to type, then got sidetracked, so didn't finish my post right away. It looks like you must have posted in between when I pushed "Reply" and when I actually submitted.

Sorry about that! blush
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Scott Lewis
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On another note, I'm starting to think you may be right in that they are different. Section 1.2 may be key.

On the Letnev promissory note card, the various bits are broken up into different paragraphs. As such, they are technically separate abilities, and thus could be resolved independently. On the L1Z1X note, however, the "discard" and "gain" bits are all part of the same paragraph, which could mean 1.5's "all-or-none" bit might apply (and why it wouldn't apply for Letnev).
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Matt Provisor
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Apology accepted sir. It can be hard to keep up on all posts, I've been there. I agree with what you're saying and it seems like FFG typical style of double wording and overcomplication. We pretty much need to wait for an official ruling because there are many cards that have similar wording.
 
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Vincent J
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I would argue that this is a different case.

If you have 1 strategy token and a card reads: Player loses 2 strategy tokens >Then< effect

That's fine because you can be affected by a "lose X" ability even if you don't have X in full or at all.

But if a card reads: Player removes a Dreadnought from the board >Then< effect
and you don't have a Dreadnought on the board, then you are out of luck, because you can't fulfill the requirement.

In that case, the card in question requires that there be at least 1 strategy token in the L1Z1X player's pool, otherwise you cannot as the card requires you to do: "Remove 1 token from the L1Z1X player's strategy pool and return it to his reinforcements."

And naturally the Letnev note is the other because it reads:
"At the start of a round of space combat: The Letnev player loses 2 trade goods. During this combat round, reroll any number of your dice. Then, return this card to the Letnev player."

If however the Letnev note had read "Return two tradegoods from the letnev board to the supply then..." it would have been contingent on him having at least two tradegoods.
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Scott Lewis
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I realized I forgot to post the answer I got. Short version - I was mistaken.

Basically, it boils down to the "formatting" - which was intentional. The L1z1x note is a single paragraph, thus making it "all or none". The Letnev note is split into two paragraphs, making the two clauses independent.

I'll see if I can track down the email I got - it was a bit ago and I just forgot to reply here!
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