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Subject: Broken units... rss

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Tom Manning
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Help again please...before I get this to the table,I want to insure that I am comfortable with the rules...going thru the playbook...page 3 fire attack B) states that the medium MG in K4 cannot fire because it is manned by a broken unit. The broken team itself can fire up to 3 hexes away....now,here's where I'm confused...3.2.3 attached weapons states that broken units cannot fire...
Also,I notice that the broken unit has a 0 rating for FP...I realize the leader can add to FP to a unit in the same hex...so..
Can a broken unit fire or Not?
Additionally it appears that Lt.Danichi in hex K4 has activated Sgt Endo in L 3 ..i was under the impression that leaders could not activate leaders...am I misinterpreting the explanation wrong?
 
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Michael Olsen
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3.2.3: "Broken units cannot fire weapons"

Glossary: "Weapon
—Any small (½”) counter with a
weapon illustration such as a machine gun or
mortar. Unlike other markers, weapons will
always have a FP and a range."

Edit: Just to be clear: Yes, a broken unit can fire, but not use a carried weapon.
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Mark Buetow
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hodges69 wrote:
Help again please...before I get this to the table,I want to insure that I am comfortable with the rules...going thru the playbook...page 3 fire attack B) states that the medium MG in K4 cannot fire because it is manned by a broken unit. The broken team itself can fire up to 3 hexes away....now,here's where I'm confused...3.2.3 attached weapons states that broken units cannot fire..
Also,I notice that the broken unit has a 0 rating for FP...I realize the leader can add to FP to a unit in the same hex...so..
Can a broken unit fire or Not?


Broken units can fire; they cannot fire an attached weapon. ("Weapon" means an attached weapon, not the inherent guns the unit has).

Quote:

Additionally it appears that Lt.Danichi in hex K4 has activated Sgt Endo in L 3 ..i was under the impression that leaders could not activate leaders...am I misinterpreting the explanation wrong?


Leaders cannot activate other leaders. But I'll have to look at the Playbook later to see what the confusion might be.
 
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Tom Manning
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Michael_Olsen wrote:
3.2.3: "Broken units cannot fire weapons"

Glossary: "Weapon
—Any small (½”) counter with a
weapon illustration such as a machine gun or
mortar. Unlike other markers, weapons will
always have a FP and a range."

Edit: Just to be clear: Yes, a broken unit can fire, but not use a carried weapon.

Thanks...but in this case the broken unit has a 0 FP....So,how would that work? also...let's say a US Squad moves into a hex occupied by a Japanese
Squad...the US has no more cards to play..and defers to the Japanese player who has a move card..if the Japanese player sees that he is outnumbered,can he use the move card to back out of the Melee hex?
One last question....terrain...if there are 3 palm trees between the targeted unit and the shooter....is there a -3 hinderance peanlty go yhe FP? Or is Los completely blocked?
Thanks for all the help..
 
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Mark Buetow
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hodges69 wrote:
Michael_Olsen wrote:
3.2.3: "Broken units cannot fire weapons"

Glossary: "Weapon
—Any small (½”) counter with a
weapon illustration such as a machine gun or
mortar. Unlike other markers, weapons will
always have a FP and a range."

Edit: Just to be clear: Yes, a broken unit can fire, but not use a carried weapon.

Thanks...but in this case the broken unit has a 0 FP....So,how would that work?

Sorry, I don't have the playbook in front of me, but presuming the unit is with a leader, he would have a firepower greater than 0 if the Leader's Command rating is greater than zero.

Quote:
also...let's say a US Squad moves into a hex occupied by a Japanese
Squad...the US has no more cards to play..and defers to the Japanese player who has a move card..if the Japanese player sees that he is outnumbered,can he use the move card to back out of the Melee hex?


The only way to *enter* a hex with an enemy unit is by Advancing. Japanese could use a Move to exit melee on their turn.
Quote:

One last question....terrain...if there are 3 palm trees between the targeted unit and the shooter....is there a -3 hinderance peanlty go yhe FP? Or is Los completely blocked?
Thanks for all the help..


Hindrance is never cumulative. The hindrance would only be -1 regardless of how many Palm hexes the LOS passes through.
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Marty Sample
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Malacandra wrote:
hodges69 wrote:
[q="Michael_Olsen"]3.2.3: "Broken units cannot fire weapons"

Glossary: "Weapon
—Any small (½”) counter with a
weapon illustration such as a machine gun or
mortar. Unlike other markers, weapons will
always have a FP and a range."

Edit: Just to be clear: Yes, a broken unit can fire, but not use a carried weapon.

Thanks...but in this case the broken unit has a 0 FP....So,how would that work?

Sorry, I don't have the playbook in front of me, but presuming the unit is with a leader, he would have a firepower greater than 0 if the Leader's Command rating is greater than zero.

No rulebook handy either, but IIRC he could also be firing downhill and thus get to 1 FP.
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Tom Manning
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Thanks to all for helping to clear my "fog of war"
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David Janik-Jones
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Also, Tom, if you ever want a game via Vassal, send me a geek mail.
 
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Tom Manning
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David....would love to...but I don't have a computer....do everything from an IPad...vassal and applecdo not play nicely together...besides,I have to learn the game first...😀But I bet you couldn't tell that,right?
 
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Mark Buetow
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hodges69 wrote:

Additionally it appears that Lt.Danichi in hex K4 has activated Sgt Endo in L 3 ..i was under the impression that leaders could not activate leaders...am I misinterpreting the explanation wrong?


Checked the Playbook. You’ll note that A) specifically says that Dainichi cannot activate Sgt. Endo. The unit in L3 with Sgt. Endo is activated by Dainichi.

The unit with Endo, however, gets all of the leader bonuses because it is with Endo. A leader does not need to be activated to give its leader bonus to units in the hex with him.

Hope that helps clear things up.
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Tom Manning
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Mark...aha...get it now..
Thank you..
Finding some questions difficult to find the answers for...I'll keep plowing until I do...can't wait to start playing the game.....
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Chick Lewis
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We forgot to say - - - "WELCOME HODGES69" !!!
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Tom Manning
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Thank you...
 
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Michael Olsen
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hodges69 wrote:
Mark...aha...get it now..
Thank you..
Finding some questions difficult to find the answers for...I'll keep plowing until I do...can't wait to start playing the game.....


And while do (plowing), please feel free to ask as many questions as you like. I think you will find this community very eager to help : - )
 
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Tom Manning
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Michael..
Be careful what you offer! I just hope the kind,patient and most generous members of the community remain patient as I have been accused of overthinking,and quite frankly,sometimes as a P.I.A.!
Most grateful to all...tonight Map A gets to the gaming table,with the kind assistance of y'all!
 
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Michael Olsen
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hodges69 wrote:
Michael..
Be careful what you offer! I just hope the kind,patient and most generous members of the community remain patient as I have been accused of overthinking,and quite frankly,sometimes as a P.I.A.!
Most grateful to all...tonight Map A gets to the gaming table,with the kind assistance of y'all!


Tom, I make you this promise: Any question you ask here, not answered by someone else, I will take care of.

The thing about it is, answering questions just make my understanding of the rules stronger. Which is, of course, a good thing. And to be frank, I enjoy it.

Have fun tonight.
 
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Tom Manning
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Thank you!
 
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Tom Manning
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Going to pick some more brains if that's OK..
Not feeling very comfortable about LOS...from what I've read..please validate or correct
1)if there is an intervening hex which contains degrading terrain in addition the the hex in front of the spotting unit..LOS is blocked

2) are palm trees notbtreated as degrading terrain? In the playnthrough example..thevsniper is shooting through about 3-4 palm trees and still is able to take a shot...

3) in the event that it's ok to shoot thru...-1 penalty thru several palm trees without blocking LOS.. would any other type of terrain qualify for this as well.

3)the LOS numbers printed on the players aid chart signify...exactly what?
I'm assuming hinderance penalties....correct?
4)Does being in the outer edge of a jungle hex block LOS Or does one need to be 1 hex back into the jungle?

Thanks..
 
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Dan Huffman
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I don't know where you got the term "degrading" terrain. So I'm going to ignore your questions and make my own comments to explain.

First, the terrain of the hex is NOT the most numerous thing in the hex. Your Terrain Chart is set up from 1st priority to last. So if there is a Hut, a piece of Jungle, a Gully and a bit of open ground all in one hex, the hex is a Hut Hex for purposes of COVER.

Move: This describes how much movement the hex costs to move through. Terrain Features (road, trail, hill, blaze) can change this cost.

Cover: This number is added to your Morale (so a negative number, like the one for a Water Barrier, would lower your Morale). Let's use our hypothetical hex from above .... So your Morale would be +2 for the Huts.

LOS: This might be what you meant by degradable?? This is the Hindrance for the Terrain type (not hex) that the LOS actually passes through. If a LOS touches a Terrain type, the shot is blocked or hindered. In our hypothetical hex, the Targeting Roll (for range) or Fire Power is reduced by the largest Hindrance that the LOS actually touches.....so 4 for the Hut, Blocked if it touches the Jungle, and not affected if going over the gully or open ground.

To belabor the point, if an LOS goes through a Hut, Grass, and a Palm tree, the Hindrance would be 4. Note that some LOS might go through three Palm hexes but never touch a tree, so the Hindrance could be zero!

Hmmm... question 4 ... So if the LOS ends in the Jungle hex, you are going to use the COVER. If the LOS goes THROUGH a Jungle hex, it is blocked.



Hope all that isn't confusing. Hope it helps.
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Michael Olsen
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hodges69 wrote:
1)if there is an intervening hex which contains degrading terrain in addition the the hex in front of the spotting unit..LOS is blocked


I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean by 'degrading' in this context.

If you mean if you can shoot through multiple hexes with hindrance the answer is Yes.
Note that hindrance is *not* cumulative. I strongly suggest you read 16.3.3 carefully (including the grey box just beneath the rule).

hodges69 wrote:
2) are palm trees notbtreated as degrading terrain? In the playnthrough example..thevsniper is shooting through about 3-4 palm trees and still is able to take a shot...


'Degrading' is not a term from the rulebook. Palm trees has 1 Cover and 1 LOS hindrance.

What does this mean?

It means that

A: Any unit being shot at which is located in a Palm tree hex will add 1 to it's defence roll

and

B: Any direct fire shot going *through* (not out of, not into, but *through*) a palm tree hex will have a hindrance of 1 (unless it also goes *through* another hindrance with a higher modifier, again see 16.3.3).

Please note that in the case of (B) the LOS string (or whatever you use) must actually touch the palm tree. Please see 16.1.

Is this clear?

It is exceptionally important to differ between Cover and Hindrance, and I highly recommend spending time and energy on getting this right. If not you will confuse yourself.

hodges69 wrote:
3) in the event that it's ok to shoot thru...-1 penalty thru several palm trees without blocking LOS.. would any other type of terrain qualify for this as well.


In the Terrain Chart you can see the LOS column. That is the hindrance value.

Note that some hindrance values is not a value but an obstacle instead. That if the terrain you can not shoot *through*.

hodges69 wrote:
3)the LOS numbers printed on the players aid chart signify...exactly what?
I'm assuming hinderance penalties....correct?


Correct

hodges69 wrote:
4)Does being in the outer edge of a jungle hex block LOS Or does one need to be 1 hex back into the jungle?


If I understand you correctly:
If you are the outer edge of a jungle, as you say, then there is not drawn a LOS *though* the hex and LOS is not blocked. You do get the Cover value (3) added to the defense roll.

If you are "1 hex back" then LOS is blocked (as per the Terrain Chart).

I hope this helps. It sounds like you almost got it but just needs a little bit of assurance.
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Tom Manning
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Micheal....thanks..degrading=hinderance...I used the wrong nomenclature..so,in summmation...the only obstacles in the game are
Building/hut....jungle...Swamp(water)...blaze..All other terrain is consider s hinderances

Not clear about 16.1..."if the string touches the physical depiction of a terrain Obsacle OR hinderance in an intervening hex,LOS is blocked"therefore my question referenced in my post referenced as #1..I would interpret that as notbhaving a LOS if the string touches 2 terrain hexes within LOS.. thus blocking it...right Or Wrong?

Referencing palm trees..does your answer mean that if am in the middle of a palm grove....someone takes a shot...I get a +1 for cover...he gets a -1 for hinderance..wouldn't these be the same wether he shot into or at a target outside the palm grove?
Thanks for being patient with me..
 
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Dan Huffman
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Tom, if you are "in the middle" of the Grove by being in a Palm hex and having a Palm tree between you and him, then yes, he is -1 hindrance for the OTHER hex having a Palm tree and you get +1 cover for YOUR hex having Palm trees.

If it is an otherwise clear shot, then only the cover would apply, as the final hex provides no Hindrance unless it is smoke.
 
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Tom Manning
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Dan....got it..thanks..BUT STILL scratching my head regarding my query regarding rule 16.1 and LOS..
This is the way I'm interpreting this..
Let's assume your 2 hexes back in a palm tree grove..your looking at a target 5 hexes away...in just past that ..2 hexes after the palm tree is a bush...the enemy is 2 hexes behind the bush...therefore,as I see it ..LOS to target is blocked since there is an intervening hex behind the palm tree...? Isn't that right? I am comfortable with taking the penalty rule for the higher blocking terrain...which,in this case doesn't apply since both carry the same penalties.....
So,basically I'm asking if 2,pieces of terrain...lineup 3 hexes apart..does that block LOS since the rules specifically reference intervening..
Thanks
 
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Dan Huffman
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This is a screen shot for Map K
I don't know how to make it larger, sorry. :-(



All LOS are reciprocal. One can see the other. Hindrances are exactly the same-- Always!


B3 to D3 Hindrance = 3 for the Grass

B3 to B5 Hindrance = 3 for the Grass

D3 to H5 Hindrance = 1 for the Palms

D3 to H3 Hindrance = 1 for the Palms

D3 to J3 Hindrance = 4 for the Huts

B3 to H3 Hindrance = 3 for Grass

B3 to J3 Hindrance = 4 for the Huts


Hopefully that helps
 
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Tom Manning
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Dan..thank you for taking the time to do this..Iprettymuch understand the hinderance costs...my problem is Los...let me give u an example using map K
Would a squad in hexF4 have LOS to hex E4 since there are intervening hexes in between?
Thanks
 
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