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Subject: America's gun culture explained with 8 simple charts rss

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J.D. Hall
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Oooookay. It's a nice try, but superficial. Still, the results from these surveys/polls are interesting, especially in light of yesterday's tragedy in Las Vegas.

http://us.cnn.com/2017/10/02/politics/guns-maps-las-vegas/in...

What I found most interesting was the nearly-unanimous agreement for more intensive background checks and tighter restrictions on keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill individuals, which contrasts with the NRA's proposal to put a handgun in the tiny mitts of newborns.
 
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Daniel Kearns
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As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.
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Shawn Fox
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dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

You don't see how the people at the concert who were carrying a firearm were safer than those who were not?
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Andre
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If you are concerned about protecting your home, get a dog, not a gun. Most people that might do you harm in your own home are likely rank amateurs, and would sooner run than face any issues that endanger themselves. And unless you are a very light sleeper, I suspect that if they had a gun on them, they'd have the upper hand at surprising you, even in your own home. I won't mention how rarely this happens, it's probably not even statistically relevant, frankly. So yes, I also question the need to "protect" oneself in their own home.

That said, most liberals and gun control advocates don't even care about your gun for either hunting or home protection. Have at it. What they typically do object to is the senseless selling/availability of semi automatic weapons (and worse), which can be used to perpetrate a crime like this. There is no valid reason for a homeonwner, or anyone else for that matter, to own a weapon like the one used here, period.

But that is not what the NRA would have you believe.
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dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.
One way is to open carry. If you have a gun on your hip, the theory says it is a deterrent. A sufficiently aware criminal will see your obvious weapon and not choose you, or your environs, for a crime. Obviously has no affect on crazy people, or a criminal who wants what you have bad enough to shoot you before you even realize there is a threat, since the option for them to non-violently rob you is gone. The people who conceal carry are forgoing the whole deterrent factor in order to not cause a hoo-haw just going about their daily lives. They could draw and shoot a criminal, but now they have to be sure they are accurately assessing the situation and using force appropriately in a public space (something that even trained police officers seem to struggle with at times). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Most of the time people spend a lot of time lugging around dangerous hardware for an event that will never happen to anyone they know, let alone themselves.

Second, is to shoot an intruder in your home. The assumption being they are there to cause you bodily harm. More likely than not, this is more of a case of protecting your "stuff" than yourself. But, there are enough home intrusion rapes to make it a justifiable act. I can understand this usage case.
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Chengkai Yang
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sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

You don't see how the people at the concert who were carrying a firearm were safer than those who were not?


Oh god, could you imagine the ensuing mess if they actually did? 20+ shooters, a firefight at ground level to add more confusion to the mess, and maybe this asshole would have escaped because everyone assumed it was a bunch of armed gunmen in the crowd and some sorta coordinated attack.
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Jon Badolato
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sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

You don't see how the people at the concert who were carrying a firearm were safer than those who were not?


I'm not sure if you forgot the green font, but the shooter was firing from the 32nd floor of the nearby building. If you've seen the cell phone footage it took some time to recognize where the bullets were coming from, and it certainly wasn't safe or wise for a concertgoer armed with a gun to fire randomly in that general direction. So in this instance, those with guns weren't necessarily safer from this particular shooter in this incident.
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Andre
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jonb wrote:
sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

You don't see how the people at the concert who were carrying a firearm were safer than those who were not?


I'm not sure if you forgot the green font, but the shooter was firing from the 32nd floor of the nearby building. If you've seen the cell phone footage it took some time to recognize where the bullets were coming from, and it certainly wasn't safe or wise for a concertgoer armed with a gun to fire randomly in that general direction. So in this instance, those with guns weren't necessarily safer from this particular shooter in this incident.


Pretty sure he forgot the green font. Laughs, a pistol, at that range, would not be that effective at knocking out said killer.
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Daniel Kearns
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jonb wrote:
sfox wrote:
dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

You don't see how the people at the concert who were carrying a firearm were safer than those who were not?


I'm not sure if you forgot the green font, but the shooter was firing from the 32nd floor of the nearby building. If you've seen the cell phone footage it took some time to recognize where the bullets were coming from, and it certainly wasn't safe or wise for a concertgoer armed with a gun to fire randomly in that general direction. So in this instance, those with guns weren't necessarily safer from this particular shooter in this incident.


Pretty sure that was sarcasm. Reminds me of the Texas Republican who wouldn't hold town halls for fear of gun violence, where there would certainly be lots of concealed carry because yknow, TEXAS!

I still feel like guns as protection is mostly myth plus the feeling of empowerment.
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J.D. Hall
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dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

Seriously? Why do you think police officers, deputy sheriffs, soldiers, et al carry weapons? There are instances where lethal force is not only required but justified. Not as many as the NRA and the "GUNZ!!!!" folks would have you believe, but it does happen. I recall as a teenage fast food manager taking a .38-caliber revolver with me when I drop the day's cash in the bank at 11 p.m. every night. Never had to use it, but it was nice having it just in case some crazy went at me.

Let me ask you: you and your wife are driving along a nice country road. Suddenly a car rolls out of a side road, smashes into you. Two guys get out, rip your wife out of the car and start attacking her. If you had a gun, would you use it to defend your wife?
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G Rowls
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dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.


From the government and their illegal theft of money via taxation.
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fightcitymayor
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dkearns wrote:
From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?
Protection from home invasion, mostly. One blast from a shotgun in a perp's general direction is remarkably effective in causing said perp to exit. Heck, even the racking of said shotgun can be a deterrent.

That being said, how many children have stumbled into daddy's arsenal and accidentally offed themselves or their brother/sister/friend compared to how often would those guns have ever been used to stop an actual threat? Tough to say.

BUT... best for gun-control activists to stick to complaints about assault rifles and other high-powered gear, rather than get bogged down in firearms used for legitimate home defense. You won't win the latter battle, but you might make a dent in the former.
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Daniel Kearns
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remorseless1 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

Seriously? Why do you think police officers, deputy sheriffs, soldiers, et al carry weapons? There are instances where lethal force is not only required but justified. Not as many as the NRA and the "GUNZ!!!!" folks would have you believe, but it does happen. I recall as a teenage fast food manager taking a .38-caliber revolver with me when I drop the day's cash in the bank at 11 p.m. every night. Never had to use it, but it was nice having it just in case some crazy went at me.

Let me ask you: you and your wife are driving along a nice country road. Suddenly a car rolls out of a side road, smashes into you. Two guys get out, rip your wife out of the car and start attacking her. If you had a gun, would you use it to defend your wife?


Yes. In this all too common example, routine really, I would start shooting. Blam blam blam. When my wife is getting raped after a car accident though, I tend to rely primarily on kung fu and my samurai sword.

I really hope your expando ad absurdum example was sarcastic. This really isn't a scenario I think about much or feel I have to prepare for. Jesus Christ.

Are these mexican or black rapists btw?
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Shawn Fox
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fightcitymayor wrote:
BUT... best for gun-control activists to stick to complaints about assault rifles and other high-powered gear, rather than get bogged down in firearms used for legitimate home defense. You won't win the latter battle, but you might make a dent in the former.

Except of course the likelihood of being killed by an "assault" rifle is about the same as the chance of getting struck by lightning... but don't let that stop the liberals from wasting enormous amounts of everyone's time pissing off a bunch of idiot gun nuts to try to save a tiny handful of lives.

The entire gun debate is a complete waste of time, it accomplishes nothing, SCOTUS is controlled by conservatives, and the 2nd amendment exists. Yes it is dumb that people want to own absurd amounts of guns. Providing all the statistics you can dream up, arguing about the logic of restricting firearms, etc is going to be just as useful at convincing conservatives to limit gun rights as telling a religious person how ridiculous their religious beliefs are will be at convincing them to become atheist.

Unsurprisingly both beliefs are common to the same group of people. All I'm trying to say here is that you people are just wasting your time and nothing will be accomplished by all the weeping and gnashing of teeth except to drive liberals and conservatives further apart on the issues where compromise is possible.
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J.D. Hall
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dkearns wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

Seriously? Why do you think police officers, deputy sheriffs, soldiers, et al carry weapons? There are instances where lethal force is not only required but justified. Not as many as the NRA and the "GUNZ!!!!" folks would have you believe, but it does happen. I recall as a teenage fast food manager taking a .38-caliber revolver with me when I drop the day's cash in the bank at 11 p.m. every night. Never had to use it, but it was nice having it just in case some crazy went at me.

Let me ask you: you and your wife are driving along a nice country road. Suddenly a car rolls out of a side road, smashes into you. Two guys get out, rip your wife out of the car and start attacking her. If you had a gun, would you use it to defend your wife?


Yes. In this all too common example, routine really, I would start shooting. Blam blam blam. When my wife is getting raped after a car accident though, I tend to rely primarily on kung fu and my samurai sword.

I really hope your expando ad absurdum example was sarcastic. This really isn't a scenario I think about much or feel I have to prepare for. Jesus Christ.

Are these mexican or black rapists btw?

That's really funny, asshole. And totally misses the point. You admit you would use a deadly weapon (samurai sword) to provide lethal force (chopping their heads off) to defend your spouse. Whatev, dude, whatev,

And the next time you make some smart-ass remark like "are these Mexican or black rapists," I will break down and go whining to the RSP mods about how you are creating a toxic environment for me.

Piss off, dude.
 
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Daniel Kearns
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remorseless1 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
As a non-gun owner, it is hard for me to imagine owning a gun for protection.

How does one "protect" themselves with a gun? I guess you could preemptively murder or injure someone but in practice it is really hard to imagine.

From whom does one "protect" themselves? I mean, what situations are out there where you feel your protection is inadequate such that you would need lethal force to protect yourself?

I just don't understand.

Seriously? Why do you think police officers, deputy sheriffs, soldiers, et al carry weapons? There are instances where lethal force is not only required but justified. Not as many as the NRA and the "GUNZ!!!!" folks would have you believe, but it does happen. I recall as a teenage fast food manager taking a .38-caliber revolver with me when I drop the day's cash in the bank at 11 p.m. every night. Never had to use it, but it was nice having it just in case some crazy went at me.

Let me ask you: you and your wife are driving along a nice country road. Suddenly a car rolls out of a side road, smashes into you. Two guys get out, rip your wife out of the car and start attacking her. If you had a gun, would you use it to defend your wife?


Yes. In this all too common example, routine really, I would start shooting. Blam blam blam. When my wife is getting raped after a car accident though, I tend to rely primarily on kung fu and my samurai sword.

I really hope your expando ad absurdum example was sarcastic. This really isn't a scenario I think about much or feel I have to prepare for. Jesus Christ.

Are these mexican or black rapists btw?

That's really funny, asshole. And totally misses the point. You admit you would use a deadly weapon (samurai sword) to provide lethal force (chopping their heads off) to defend your spouse. Whatev, dude, whatev,

And the next time you make some smart-ass remark like "are these Mexican or black rapists," I will break down and go whining to the RSP mods about how you are creating a toxic environment for me.

Piss off, dude.


Okayyyyy. I was joking. I guess you aren't.

I do feel sorry for people who are so afraid of other Americans that they are actually concerned that their loved ones will be raped in pretty much any situation and that by owning a gun, they can prevent that.
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Andre
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sfox wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
BUT... best for gun-control activists to stick to complaints about assault rifles and other high-powered gear, rather than get bogged down in firearms used for legitimate home defense. You won't win the latter battle, but you might make a dent in the former.

Except of course the likelihood of being killed by an "assault" rifle is about the same as the chance of getting struck by lightning... but don't let that stop the liberals from wasting enormous amounts of everyone's time pissing off a bunch of idiot gun nuts to try to save a tiny handful of lives.

The entire gun debate is a complete waste of time, it accomplishes nothing, SCOTUS is controlled by conservatives, and the 2nd amendment exists. Yes it is dumb that people want to own absurd amounts of guns. Providing all the statistics you can dream up, arguing about the logic of restricting firearms, etc is going to be just as useful at convincing conservatives to limit gun rights as telling a religious person how ridiculous their religious beliefs are will be at convincing them to become atheist.

Unsurprisingly both beliefs are common to the same group of people. All I'm trying to say here is that you people are just wasting your time and nothing will be accomplished by all the weeping and gnashing of teeth except to drive liberals and conservatives further apart on the issues where compromise is possible.


That's a defeatist attitude. If Martin Luther King thought that way about his cause in the 60's, we'd still have Negro bathrooms.
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J.D. Hall
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dkearns wrote:

Okayyyyy. I was joking. I guess you aren't.

I do feel sorry for people who are so afraid of other Americans that they are actually concerned that their loved ones will be raped in pretty much any situation and that by owning a gun, they can prevent that.

My civilian career was as a police reporter for newspapers. I have seen the results of people being murdered -- smelled it, stepped over their blood, seen the pieces of an 18-month-old scattered around a living room. And I've seen the results of someone with a gun protecting their friends by shooting someone (non-fatally fortunately). I've also been shot at. I understand the need some people have for fearing for their life, and understand (though don't agree) with their need to slap a sidearm to their hip.

And I find nothing funny about racism. Not one fucking thing.
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Daniel Kearns
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remorseless1 wrote:
dkearns wrote:

Okayyyyy. I was joking. I guess you aren't.

I do feel sorry for people who are so afraid of other Americans that they are actually concerned that their loved ones will be raped in pretty much any situation and that by owning a gun, they can prevent that.

My civilian career was as a police reporter for newspapers. I have seen the results of people being murdered -- smelled it, stepped over their blood, seen the pieces of an 18-month-old scattered around a living room. And I've seen the results of someone with a gun protecting their friends by shooting someone (non-fatally fortunately). I've also been shot at. I understand the need some people have for fearing for their life, and understand (though don't agree) with their need to slap a sidearm to their hip.

And I find nothing funny about racism. Not one fucking thing.


Fine. Get some help with post-traumatic stress maybe. I realize I hit a nerve but what exactly are you freaking out about?

I didn't care for your imaginary driveby rapist bullshit either. And the imaginary rapist is often a very racially charged straw argument.

I stand by my assertion that defense by gun is the vast minority exception (and side case) to the rule of harm by gun.
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endofturn
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So, either gun deaths are an epidemic and it's way too much that there are 30 murders per day via gun in America.

OR you don't see a reason to defend yourself or your family with force of arms.

If you know that the US has a huge murder rate and you don't conceive of a reason you'd want to ever defend your family then I really don't know what to do with that.
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J.D. Hall
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dkearns wrote:
1. Fine. Get some help with post-traumatic stress maybe. I realize I hit a nerve but what exactly are you freaking out about?

2. I didn't care for your imaginary driveby rapist bullshit either. And the imaginary rapist is often a very racially charged straw argument.

3. I stand by my assertion that defense by gun is the vast minority exception (and side case) to the rule of harm by gun.


1. You inferred from my race-neutral statement that it meant colored folk and that I was a racist. I have been fighting racism all my life in Oklahoma and Texas, and I will be damned if some internet poster tars me with something I loathe.

2. Nobody needs to defend someone else with a weapon if it's a fender bender and the other guy drives off. There are rare, rare exceptions where you might need a weapon to defend yourself or others. Rape, assault, attempted murder, those are your choices. What, did you expect I would condone pulling a gun on someone who just knocked your ice cream cone out of your hand?

3. On that, we agree 100%, and for the record I don't like the idea that I'm driving around inside a sea of morons who are armed to the teeth. For every murder I covered, I covered two or three accidental shootings. Too many people think the damned things are toys.
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endofturn
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Wait, how does a hypothetical rape scenario have the potential to be racially charged?
 
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I keep thinking about the Nick Wright NFL protest video, especially the bit at the end where he suggests that if players were taking the knee to protest poor treatment of veterans and not police shootings of black people that no one would complain.

To wit: imagine if gun fetishism was a black thing and not a white thing. Imagine if black people were hoarding guns and ammo at the same rate as our current gun nuts are hoarding it. Would this even be an issue?

Of course not.

For clarity: I'm not saying that guns are a racial issue. What I'm saying is that if guns were a racial issue, there would be no issue at all, as those guns would be illegal faster than you can say "double standard".

(Oh, here's the video, lest anyone have to go hunting for it themselves.)

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EntropyGuardian wrote:
So, either gun deaths are an epidemic and it's way too much that there are 30 murders per day via gun in America.

OR you don't see a reason to defend yourself or your family with force of arms.

If you know that the US has a huge murder rate and you don't conceive of a reason you'd want to ever defend your family then I really don't know what to do with that.


Well, the US has a huge murder rate and it has a huge number of civilians with guns.

I suppose if your solution to the huge murder rate is more guns, then yes, I could see how my lack of concern for my family's safety not make sense. I personally think demilitarizing everyone would lower the amount of violence and so I live that way.

Finally, even though gun related murders are the highest in the US, gun related death is still a fantastically RARE way to die. Too frequent for my liking but not common enough where I feel that I need to arm myself. Does that help?

Oh, and the NRA and guns needed as personal defense against crime can be traced back to the KKK.
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"That's really funny, asshole. And totally misses the point. You admit you would use a deadly weapon (samurai sword) to provide lethal force (chopping their heads off) to defend your spouse. Whatev, dude, whatev"

Irony is without proper training he is more likely to be the one hurt by the sword than if he used a gun.


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